Why Buck's Row?

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

You've really got the bit between your teeth.

Lots of people who earned their living on the streets were not prostitutes.

Regards,

Simon

[David Orsam]

Hi David,

You've really got the bit between your teeth.

Lots of people who earned their living on the streets were not prostitutes.

Are you being serious Simon? I mean, at night?

Here is the evidence of Farmer as reported in the London Evening Post:

"She did crochet work and made antimacassars for a living and also sold flowers. Witness was afraid she also went on the streets at night. In fact, deceased had told her she did".

I wonder why Farmer was "afraid" that she went on the streets at night.

You do know that going on the streets at night means prostitution don't you, Simon?

[David Orsam]

From the Daily News report of Farmer's testimony:

"The Coroner - Is it correct that she got money in the streets?

The Witness - I am afraid that she was not particular how she earned her living. She has told me that she was out late at night sometimes."

Asking if Chapman "got money in the streets" was the same as asking if Chapman was a prostitute.

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

Believe what you want to believe.

Why did the H Division police not recognise her as a local prostitute?

Regards,

Simon

[David Orsam]

Believe what you want to believe.

It's not a question of me believing anything Simon. Amelia Farmer testified that Chapman took to prostitution at night. That's just a fact.

Why did the H Division police not recognise her as a local prostitute?

If you can show me some evidence that H Division police knew every single woman who worked as a prostitute within Whitechapel I will happily answer your question.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Reckon there is a reasonable case for her being quietly dragged unconscious from the street to the back yard.

Hi Dave,

But is it likely that he would have killed her out on the street in the early hours of the morning with people like Elizabeth Long and others around going to work etc? Surely it's overwhelmingly likely that she was killed in situ and any blood found in the passageway came from the killer as he made his escape?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi David,

Believe what you want to believe.

Why did the H Division police not recognise her as a local prostitute?

Regards,

Simon

Did the police at the time keep extensive files on every prostitute? What if she'd never been arrested? Avoiding the police would have been a primary skill for a prostitute (and still is, for all I know that is )

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

Amelia Farmer did not testify that Chapman "took to prostitution at night."

That's your spin.

The police did not recognise any of the C5. Nor did they recognise them once they had their names.

Regards,

Simon

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Dave,

But is it likely that he would have killed her out on the street in the early hours of the morning with people like Elizabeth Long and others around going to work etc? Surely it's overwhelmingly likely that she was killed in situ and any blood found in the passageway came from the killer as he made his escape?

Except that, as I posted earlier, Dr Phillips said he made a search of the passage and found no blood. I suspect the report that Simon posted was inaccurate, like the reports of blood on the fence at 25 or of the message left by the killer.

It's possible she was carried unconscious through the passage, of course (or was given a piggy back by her killer, or even that they romped to the back yard in Fatal Attraction style). But it's always easier to get a living person to move than a dead one. And she had already said "yes", according to Mrs Long.

[David Orsam]

Did the police at the time keep extensive files on every prostitute?

Certainly not. Even if some individual police officers would have recognised her from the streets that would have been of no use if they didn't know her name and I'm certainly not aware of the entire H Division trooping into the mortuary to take a look.

What if she'd never been arrested? Avoiding the police would have been a primary skill for a prostitute (and still is, for all I know that is )

Of course, you are absolutely right. Simon's big point is a complete non-point.

[David Orsam]

Amelia Farmer did not testify that Chapman "took to prostitution at night."

Of course she did Simon. It was, of course, a delicate subject but it was perfectly clear. Let's look at it again shall we:

The Coroner - Is it correct that she got money in the streets? (i.e. Is it correct that she was a prostitute?)

The Witness - I am afraid that she was not particular how she earned her living. She has told me that she was out late at night sometimes." (i.e. I'm afraid she was and I know this because she told me.)

It's not even controversial!

[DJA]

Hi Dave,

But is it likely that he would have killed her out on the street in the early hours of the morning with people like Elizabeth Long and others around going to work etc? Surely it's overwhelmingly likely that she was killed in situ and any blood found in the passageway came from the killer as he made his escape?

Basically why he would "choke hold" her and drag her out the back.
There was no blood in the passage.

Chapman was probably led off Hanbury Street to get her away from prying eyes,possibly with the offer of accommodation now and money at a later time.

Reckon Eddowes was dragged into Mitre Square from one of the Mitre Street houses.

[David Orsam]

The police did not recognise any of the C5. Nor did they recognise them once they had their names.

This is such a bad point.

Did "The police", whatever you mean by that, all troop into the mortuary one by one to try and identify the bodies of these victims?

Identity was proved by someone who knew the deceased well. No-one asked every single police officer to visit the mortuary to see if they recognised any of these women from the streets. Such an effort would have been pointless in any case unless the officers also knew the real names of the women and could positively identify them by their real name.

Whether the women were prostitutes or not was not the main issue to be resolved in the investigation (and the answer could, in any event, be gleaned from people who knew them, as occurred).

[Herlock Sholmes]

Except that, as I posted earlier, Dr Phillips said he made a search of the passage and found no blood. I suspect the report that Simon posted was inaccurate, like the reports of blood on the fence at 25 or of the message left by the killer.

It's possible she was carried unconscious through the passage, of course (or was given a piggy back by her killer, or even that they romped to the back yard in Fatal Attraction style). But it's always easier to get a living person to move than a dead one. And she had already said "yes", according to Mrs Long.

Sorry Joshua

I missed your post.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Joshua,

David's was a really bad point. But never mind.

The Manchester Guardian, 10th September 1888, confirmed the bloodstains in the passage of 29 Hanbury Street whilst offering the most sublimely ridiculous explanation for their presence—

“There were some marks of blood observable in the passage, but it is now known that these were caused during the work of removal of some packing cases, the edges of which accidentally came in contact with the blood upon the spot from which the unhappy victim was removed.”

And if you believe that, I know a recently deposed Nigerian prince who is eager to put £27 million into your bank account.

Regards,

Simon