The Paris Torso Mystery

[Fiver]

However, it has been stated that he had an alibi that the police were satisfied with, ergo, he was too far away from the area for him to have murdered Jackson.

However, I have yet to see any EVIDENCE that confirms his alibi is TRUE.

If all we have is the word of the police at the time, then I would suggest they may have potentially made an error of judgment when dismissing Faircloth as a suspect in the murder of Jackson.

Period police lacked many modern tools, but they weren't the complete idiots that the newspapers claimed, either.

In the Nichols murder, witnesses who worked together were interviewed separately. Witnesses were called on to identify other witnesses at the inquest. The surrounding areas were searched. Door to door interviews were ordered for Bucks Row and surrounding streets.

So unless evidence appears showing that Faircloth's alibi was false, I'd assume his alibi is true.

[Abby Normal]

Completely agree

If one tries for just a moment to put oneself in the shoes of a killer tasked with disposing of a victim's body, it seems obvious that the simplest option is to bury the body somewhere (a forest, a garden...) or to toss it into the river to let it decompose there.

Of course, if one lives in a metropolis like London or Paris, venturing into the streets with a corpse proves exceedingly risky, especially in an era where the carriage was one of the few means of transportation. Hence the temptation to dismember the corpse into pieces, which would be easier to transport discreetly.

But even after the dismemberment, it remains that, if one is solely driven by fear of the police and the courts, the pieces will have to be either buried or thrown into the river (once weighted to ensure that the pieces will sink into the depths).

By proceeding as he did, it seems evident that the Torso Killer wanted the limbs to be found. Moreover, if, as is believed, he had organized himself to have a place for dismemberment, it would have been quite easy for him to locate this "cutting workshop" above the river, near a quay, to discreetly drop the weighted pieces into the water.

The same goes for the Paris Torso Killer. Dispersing packages in public urinals (twice) and along an urban railway track (once) near which, due to a tunnel collapse the night before, street cleaners and police officers were patrolling, is a sign of a desire to "show" the horror of his crime.

One could argue that, since there is a recurrence in the act of dismemberment, the murderer was primarily driven by the sadistic pleasure of dismemberment. However, I can cite the case of Victor Prévost, a policeman at the time of his two murders (1876 and 1879), but who had previously worked as a butcher (hence his nickname "The La Chapelle Butcher"). Prévost was judged and sentenced to death. During the trial, it was demonstrated that his crimes were primarily motivated by the lure of gain: his first victim was his own mistress to whom an old man in her care had just bequeathed 30,000 francs, his second victim was a jewelry broker whom he had asked to visit him with a sample of his finest goods. In both cases, Victor Prévost scattered the body parts in the sewers and buried the head in the embankment of the fortifications. There was no impulse in him to ensure exposing the relics of his crime to everyone. His sole and only concern was to make the traces disappear.

hi charlie
thanks! and this is for RD as well, re his last post.

ive often wondered if where torsoman dumped his bodies/ parts had special significance to him. As ive mentioned, jerry dunlop has pointed out many links to the Board of works and i am especially intrigued by his suspect Wildbore, the worker who was a witness in the New scotland yard torso. Lots of odd things witj him, one being where he lived and his route to NSY brought him by or near where parts were found and the weird circs of him "finding" the torso.

wildbore or not, did torsoman have a beef with BOW? was he snubbing his nose at tje police with the NSY dumping? was he making a macabre statement by throwing a part in the shelley ( of frankenstein fame) estate? did he feel like he was polluting or marking his spot by continually throwing parts in the river? did the places he left them have special significance to him?

something definitely is going on here, i just havent quite put my finger on it.

[The Rookie Detective]

Period police lacked many modern tools, but they weren't the complete idiots that the newspapers claimed, either.

In the Nichols murder, witnesses who worked together were interviewed separately. Witnesses were called on to identify other witnesses at the inquest. The surrounding areas were searched. Door to door interviews were ordered for Bucks Row and surrounding streets.

So unless evidence appears showing that Faircloth's alibi was false, I'd assume his alibi is true.

I am working on his alibi as we speak.

What is rather odd about his movements before and after the murder of Jackson, is his ability to cover hundreds of miles in a relatively short period.

There are so many contrasting reports from various newspapers, and even his inquest testimony feels a little suspect.

I am in the process of putting together a timeline of his movements, which highlights his inconsistency.

It is essential to point out at this juncture that Debra A is the leading light on Faircloth, and all that I have come to know about him has stemmed initially from her exceptional research on him.

I am very much standing on the backs of giants with this, but at the same time, I think it allows me to potentially dig a little deeper.

What I will say at this point, is that I believe that Faircloth DID have time to kill Jackson, and more importantly, I believe I may have worked out HOW he did it.

There was a recent comment on this forum regarding Faircloth, that used his being in the West Country as an alibi for being too far away from London...but Faircloth wasn't in the West Country when Jackson was killed, he was much MUCH closer.

His testimony is what we like to call a game of "show and tell"... whereby he tells us everything, but shows us very little in the way of transparency.

It's all smoke and mirrors.

He manages to cover over a dozen locations in various counties, all as a ruse to confuse and deflect.

One thing we have learned over the years from the police service in England, is that they have always found cross-border communication rather challenging.

This would have been even more of a challenge in 1888 and 1889.

I will put together a post over the next couple of days which I hope will highlight what I am trying to say.


Lots to ponder


RD

[jerryd]

Hello Abby and all.

Yes, the Board of Works sites are interesting to me. Some may not be aware there was a stone yard in the corner of Battersea Park closest to Albert Bridge. The BoW took over the maintenance of Battersea Park in 1887. The foundations of Scotland Yard were constructed from 1887-1888 with the superstructure following from 1888-1890. Of course, the Torso cases mostly spoken about here were through the dates I just mentioned, from 1887 to 1889. There was also the road construction in Whitechapel going on in 1888 overseen by the Board of Works. I think for any new person to the torso cases, the Whitehall Mystery in particular, you may want to read up on the National Opera House and James Mapleson. It literally lays the foundation for the Scotland Yard construction. There are a few "secrets" contained there also. Let me know what you find.The National Opera House, Thames Embankment, London (arthurlloyd.co.uk)

Regarding the Pinchin torso, I have always been intrigued with John Arnold and Claude Mellor. For RD, there was also another prediction in 1888. This happened just before the Whitehall victim was found. Same circumstances as John Arnold, a man went to the newspaper inquiring about a dead body on the embankment. Nobody had heard of it and then BAM, there it is.

Last interesting tidbit with the Pinchin torso was the story told by the journalist, Richard Harding Davis, when he toured the Whitechapel murder sites with Inspector Henry Moore.. Here, at the end of the story, is a brief clip of what he had to say.

...It had been a five hours' walk through more misery, vice and crime than can perhaps be found in as small a space, less than a square mile in any other great city. There had been only eight murders then. And as we neared the station I remember the inspector's pointing into the dark arches of the London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway, and saying: "Now, what a place for a murder that would be. " A week later, while I was in mid-ocean on my way back, the body of the ninth victim was found just under those very arches, and not three minutes' walk from the police station.

[jerryd]

Regarding Faircloth, this piece from the Times, 26th July, 1889 seems pretty certain the police had done their job tracing his whereabouts before and after the murder.

As soon as the body was identified the police directed their attention to finding the man Faircloth, and a woodcut from a photograph of the man taken at Ipswich, together with his description, was got out and circulated in every town and village in England, and by means of this description he was traced through Dorsetshire into Devonshire until he was found in Ottery St. Mary by Inspector Moore. He at once gave a detailed statement of his movements from the time he left the woman on the 28th of April until he was found, and since he had given his evidence before the Coroner Inspector Moore and Sergeant Turrell went over the ground said to have been traversed by Faircloth, visiting Biggleswade, Hitchin, High Wycombe, St. Albans, Great Marlow, Reading, Odiham, and other places. It had been conclusively shown that on the night of the 3d of June (the last time the deceased was seen alive) Faircloth was staying at the Goat at High Wycombe, and he had spent the two previous nights at Watford. He was traced to all the places he had named, and at all of them he had been calling at various mills with the view of getting employment, and the police had quite satisfied themselves that he had not been in London or near London for at least ten days before and after the disappearance of the deceased. Throughout the whole of the time he had been wearing the conspicuous striped jacket in which he left London, and had been passing in his own name.

[Abby Normal]

thanks Jerry!
and good to see you on here again!! great stuff!

can you talk a little bit about wildbore and his intriguing circs re the torso/s? thanks buddy!

[jerryd]

thanks Jerry!
and good to see you on here again!! great stuff!

can you talk a little bit about wildbore and his intriguing circs re the torso/s? thanks buddy!

Abby.

I have a feeling this thread would take a very wrong turn if I did that. Hope you understand? I am more than willing to share everything I know about him by referring to threads I've started regarding him or even in a PM.

[Abby Normal]

Abby.

I have a feeling this thread would take a very wrong turn if I did that. Hope you understand? I am more than willing to share everything I know about him by referring to threads I've started regarding him or even in a PM.

no worries. yes, please point us to your threads on him!

[The Rookie Detective]

Hello Abby and all.

Yes, the Board of Works sites are interesting to me. Some may not be aware there was a stone yard in the corner of Battersea Park closest to Albert Bridge. The BoW took over the maintenance of Battersea Park in 1887. The foundations of Scotland Yard were constructed from 1887-1888 with the superstructure following from 1888-1890. Of course, the Torso cases mostly spoken about here were through the dates I just mentioned, from 1887 to 1889. There was also the road construction in Whitechapel going on in 1888 overseen by the Board of Works. I think for any new person to the torso cases, the Whitehall Mystery in particular, you may want to read up on the National Opera House and James Mapleson. It literally lays the foundation for the Scotland Yard construction. There are a few "secrets" contained there also. Let me know what you find.The National Opera House, Thames Embankment, London (arthurlloyd.co.uk)

Regarding the Pinchin torso, I have always been intrigued with John Arnold and Claude Mellor. For RD, there was also another prediction in 1888. This happened just before the Whitehall victim was found. Same circumstances as John Arnold, a man went to the newspaper inquiring about a dead body on the embankment. Nobody had heard of it and then BAM, there it is.

Last interesting tidbit with the Pinchin torso was the story told by the journalist, Richard Harding Davis, when he toured the Whitechapel murder sites with Inspector Henry Moore.. Here, at the end of the story, is a brief clip of what he had to say.

...It had been a five hours' walk through more misery, vice and crime than can perhaps be found in as small a space, less than a square mile in any other great city. There had been only eight murders then. And as we neared the station I remember the inspector's pointing into the dark arches of the London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway, and saying: "Now, what a place for a murder that would be. " A week later, while I was in mid-ocean on my way back, the body of the ninth victim was found just under those very arches, and not three minutes' walk from the police station.

Absolutely exceptional post!

So, BOTH the Whitehall torso victim AND the Pinchin St torso had individuals walk into the newspaper offices and declare a murder had been committed, and both times this was BEFORE the actual torsos had been placed.

There are coincidences and then there's COINCIDENCES.

So Jerry, just to confirm...

Parts of Elizabeth Jackson's body were discovered in a park maintained by the Board of Works, with a stone yard located there.

The Pinchin Street Torso was placed under a recently constructed railway arch of the Great Eastern Railway, next to a stone-breaking yard owned by the Board of Works.

The Whitehall Torso was placed under an ARCHED portion of the cellar foundations of the recent construction of the foundations of the New Scotland Yard building.

Elizabeth Jackson was last seen a few hours before she was murdered talking to a man with the appearance of a Navvy - a civil engineer who worked on the construction of the railways/waterways/tramways etc...

Frances Coles was murdered under a railway ARCH of the same stretch of railway as the Pinchin St torso

Israel Schwartz; the only man to see the attack on Stride and hear an anti-Semitic slur, chooses to run an irregular route to the train line. The theatrical-looking Schwartz then seems to disappear.

George Lusk had previously worked for the Board of Works

George Lusk renovated and built theatres

George Lusk was the focus of the alleged Ripper correspondences... including "Dear Boss" and the phrase "Right Track"

The Commercial Street Tram Line was constructed by "Navvies" over the duration of the Ripper murders in 1888.

...

Would I be fair in suggesting that there is a link between the WM and the Torso killings?


We are looking for a suspect who worked as a Navvy and/or Stone mason, and who was involved in the construction of the arched structures of the railway and NSY foundations. This man worked/previously worked for the Board of Works and perhaps for George Lusk at some stage.

The construction of the Commercial St tramway brought Navvies flooding into that area at the time, which may explain why the Torso killer took an autumn of terror break from dismembering, and spent the time making himself famous by becoming the Ripper.

He then alternated accordingly, but left a few signature moves that hinted it was the same man.


The Board of Works
The Stone Yards/Stone Masonry
The Navvy
The Railway/Tramway/Canalway construction
Arches
George Lusk
The Theatre/Renovations

Put all the above together...and there's the link.


And there's this of course...


Nichols - signature proximity to train line - early kill away from lodgings - testing the water - interrupted.

Chapman - proximity to location of killer's lodgings - hence later kill time - attempted and failed decapitation due to the presence of Cadoshe/light- torso killer signature

Stride - lived at 38 Dorset St, a Stone Mason named John Donnelly ran a private workshop in the cellar of 38 Dorset St, and was named (oddly) as the man who killed her - was Donnelly Stride's lover? - interrupted.

Eddowes - Claimed to know the killer and was silenced - calls herself Mary Kelly and address of 6 Fashion St - was the killer a local client of hers?

Kelly - Theatrical connection, French connection, murdered indoors, attempted decapitation - proximity to killer's lodgings hence why indoors- nearly caught.

Elizabeth Jackson - murdered by Navvy/torso killer, who made the mistake of Jackson's identity being discovered - Jackson had spent time in Whitechapel.

McKenzie - Back to basics/ safe-zone - body posed almost identically to Nichols

Coles - murdered under railway arch the killer helped to build - the same stretch of the railway as the earlier Pinchin St torso - his clue to us that he was both the Ripper and Torso killer

There's also a chance that the Torso Killer was a gardener who kept the parks and church grounds maintained, whilst working for the Board of Works.


Lots to work over here...but there is a link there if we choose to open our eyes and take a closer look.


Thank you for your remarkable post


RD

[jerryd]

Here is a start, Abby. Please understand that my research was ongoing so there are mistakes in some of my posts. I think you'll get the idea, though. Some posts also were dovetailing with other things that were on my mind at the time. i.e the stuff about Meiklejohn.

Frederick Wildbore- Whitehall Torso Witness - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)
The Whitehall Mystery and Jack the Ripper - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)
The following is not Wildbore stuff but interesting. Whitehall Vault thread is a must to understand the size of the Scotland Yard basement and difficulty getting in and out!
The Whitehall Vault - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)
John Thomas Chappell - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)
Robert Ward and Sons - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

[Abby Normal]

Here is a start, Abby. Please understand that my research was ongoing so there are mistakes in some of my posts. I think you'll get the idea, though. Some posts also were dovetailing with other things that were on my mind at the time. i.e the stuff about Meiklejohn.

Frederick Wildbore- Whitehall Torso Witness - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)
The Whitehall Mystery and Jack the Ripper - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)
The following is not Wildbore stuff but interesting. Whitehall Vault thread is a must to understand the size of the Scotland Yard basement and difficulty getting in and out!
The Whitehall Vault - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)
John Thomas Chappell - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)
Robert Ward and Sons - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

awesome! thanks jerry!

all
lots of fascinating stuff and incredible research re the torsos, ripper and related in these threads!!!

RD
you need to read through these, you will have a field day !!

[Fisherman]

The links that I posted show that you have continued to insert your suspect into the discussion after saying that you would stop.

The one link you post where I comment on the carman is a post (173) to Private Investigator, who himself brought Lechmere into the discussion in his posts 158 and 163.

After these posts of his and my answers to Private Investigator (not mentioning Lechmere) you wrote this in post 166:

"It's interesting to see you say that, because Hebbert's analysis rather conclusively rules out your favorite suspect, Charles Lechmere.

"The incisions were evidently made by design and were skilfuly performed, as by a man who had some knowledge of the position of joints and the readiest means pf separating limbs - such knowledge as a butcher or slaughterer would possess. They do not indicate a special anatomical knowledge of the human body." - Charles Hebbert!

In response to this, I wrote:

I will answer this briefly, and point out to you that Jon Menges has specifically asked us not to discuss Charles Lechmere on this thread.

The carman is not ruled out at all by the above. Hebbert is referring to the four "canonical" torso cases, and it may well be that he had acquired insights into these things before these murders happened. I beleive that the first murder we may be reasonably certain about is the 1873 Battersea murder, and there are other torso murders after that where he would have gotten practice. Equally, the family got involved the cats meat business at some unidentified stage, and so he may have gotten practice that way too. He also very likely delivered meat to butchers, where he may have picked up on how to go about it, pedagogically or manually.
I always find that when we don't know if something was there or not, that is not evidence either way.

And that effectively ends the Lechmere stuff on the thread. I, at least, will adjust to Jon Menges´ bid.

After that, Private Investigator wrote, in his post 171:

"This looks very much like Kosminski, having been a hairdresser, knowing how to cut people's throats, or having worked in a hospital - for all we know, doing nothing more demanding than wheeling patients on trolleys - knowing all about anatomy, or Druitt, being the son of a doctor, having 'access' to all the knowledge he needed to do what the Whitechapel murderer did.

It does not stand up."

... all of which brings us to my post 173, the one you are pointing to as an example of me "inserting Charles Lechmere into the thread":

"It has nothing whatsoever to do wih Kosminski and haircutting. If he delivered meat to butchers, and at the same time was a member of a family that was deeply involved in the horse flesh business, there is every chance that he acquired an amount of training and insights about cutting and disarticulating.

Cutting hair is a VERY different matter, as I am sure you are able to understand if you put your mind to it."

From the above, it should be very clear that I did not insert Lechmere at all. You and Private Investigator did. In post 173, I gave a brief answer to why I thought Private Investigator was wrong when he seemingly denied how a layman could have been able to do what was done in the murders. The answer therefore had a direct bearing on the issue at hand - whether or not the two series may be connected. Furthermore, having given my view, I did not return to the subject, introduced by you and Private Investigator.

Before I leave the matter, let me just say that I firmly feel that this kind of accusatory stuff, presented by you on no grounds at all, and seemingly with the intention to inflame, is about the very worst side I know of Ripperology. I would be grateful if you could refrain from repeating it in the future. And so I suggest that we do what were are supposed to do, instead of quibbling groundlessly over non issues: Discuss the matter of the thread as best as we can.

Having exchanged with you before, I will add that since I know that there is a risk that you will carry this ridiculousness on, I will make it my aim not to answer any forthcoming post from your side on the matter. The above should clarify totally what my view is.

[Fisherman]

Period police lacked many modern tools, but they weren't the complete idiots that the newspapers claimed, either.

In the Nichols murder, witnesses who worked together were interviewed separately. Witnesses were called on to identify other witnesses at the inquest. The surrounding areas were searched. Door to door interviews were ordered for Bucks Row and surrounding streets.

So unless evidence appears showing that Faircloth's alibi was false, I'd assume his alibi is true.

I hope you are not saying that the door to door investigation of Bucks Row came before coroner Baxter told inspector Spratling to see to it, the way you have done before? I have provided evidence that the initial door to door investigation entailed streets around Bucks Row, were incomplete and did seemingly not entail Bucks Row itself, as you may remember.

And if the Bucks Row door to door investigation did not come until after Baxter told Spratling to get it done, then it does point to the police being lax about their work.

Just wanted to put this out there, although it is a bit off topic.

[Elamarna]

I hope you are not saying that the door to door investigation of Bucks Row came before coroner Baxter told inspector Spratling to see to it, the way you have done before? I have provided evidence that the initial door to door investigation entailed streets around Bucks Row, were incomplete and did seemingly not entail Bucks Row itself, as you may remember.

And if the Bucks Row door to door investigation did not come until after Baxter told Spratling to get it done, then it does point to the police being lax about their work.

Just wanted to put this out there, although it is a bit off topic.

It's not often that I agree with Christer, but here he is basically correct.
However, it is clear that the police spoke to the Purkiss at Essex Whalf and Mrs Green immediately, but that was very limited, and could not be called a genuine door to door investigation.

It was indeed only on Baxters instruction that a proper door to door was carried out.

Steve

[Fisherman]

It's not often that I agree with Christer, but here he is basically correct.
However, it is clear that the police spoke to the Purkiss at Essex Whalf and Mrs Green immediately, but that was very limited, and could not be called a genuine door to door investigation.

It was indeed only on Baxters instruction that a proper door to door was carried out.

Steve

I tend to think I am quite often correct when you disagree with me too…

But thank you for chiming in!