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The Paris Torso Mystery

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  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Hi Charlie


    Absolutely brilliant!

    I appreciate you working with me on this, as my capabilities as a researcher are very much limited in comparison to yours and so I am very grateful for your input and guidance.

    My hypothesis is dead in the water without your help.

    I noticed there were also the names "Brehaut" and "Berhaut" that could be possibilities.

    I think it's almost certain that Behaut is a mis-spelling.

    It would ironic if it was actually Bachert or Backert and his name had been in the French press all this time without anyone having made the connection before.

    ha ha


    RD

    Leave a comment:


  • Charlie
    replied
    Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
    Charlie, this photo of Behaut is from March 1910 but published in an English newspaper
    ​​​​​
    It seems to be Behaut's only appearance in an English newspaper.
    I was therefore wondering if you were able to work your magic and look into the French Newspapers and look for Behaut?
    We are looking at March 1910 initially.
    I bet you he appears in the French Newspapers, especially the Parisian publications.
    The French newspapers will either support my claim that he's Bachert, or confirm I am talking twaddle and have made a gross error.
    I am confident that I am correct though and am predicting that Behaut turns out to be Bachert and that I have finally discovered what happened to him.
    I have no access to the French newspapers, neither am I able to translate, and so I am at a standstill with my findings on Behaut.
    Are you able to take this to the next step and find Behaut in the French publications?
    Kindest regards
    RD
    ​​
    Hello RD,

    I had already started searching on the Gallica website of the Bibliothèque nationale de France yesterday, which has digitized a vast amount of 19th-century newspapers. I also checked RetroNews, a press archives site. I just repeated my search, but unfortunately, I can't find any mention anywhere of an Albert Behaut in the French press.

    I tried "Behault," "Behaud," "Behaux" just in case there was a typo in your English article, but found nothing.
    I'll try another way.

    Charlie

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Charlie, this photo of Behaut is from March 1910 but published in an English newspaper
    ​​​​​

    It seems to be Behaut's only appearance in an English newspaper.


    I was therefore wondering if you were able to work your magic and look into the French Newspapers and look for Behaut?

    We are looking at March 1910 initially.

    I bet you he appears in the French Newspapers, especially the Parisian publications.

    The French newspapers will either support my claim that he's Bachert, or confirm I am talking twaddle and have made a gross error.

    I am confident that I am correct though and am predicting that Behaut turns out to be Bachert and that I have finally discovered what happened to him.

    I have no access to the French newspapers, neither am I able to translate, and so I am at a standstill with my findings on Behaut.

    Are you able to take this to the next step and find Behaut in the French publications?


    Kindest regards

    RD
    ​​

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    I give you Mr Albert Behaut... (Bachert)...

    *I posted this on the new thread

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    Interesting...

    RD

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra A View Post

    Hi RD
    I hope you will place a link to your findings here. I have terrible trouble finding new posts on Casebook, especially those that appear in threads that have no title on the main menu, which includes the Paris torso thread and the torso/ripper link thread. I never had these kinds of problems navigating Casebook until a couple of years ago, now I find it a nightmare. I know I'm getting older but I'm not completely senile yet but I feel it whenever I visit Casebook!

    …apologies for going off topic but it's not really off topic because it concerns how many people can easily access these posts I guess...gawd I AM old, I'm rambling on now.
    Hi Debra


    Thank you kindly for your post.


    I have discovered that Albert Bachert moved to Paris...and in 1910 he confessed to the murder, mutilation, and dismemberment of an 18 year old prostitute named Elisa Vandamme.

    He went by the name of Albert Behaut

    He jumped into the river Seine to "try" and commit suicide, but was saved and a note was found in his pocket.

    He then openly confessed.

    BUT... a few months later a man named Paul Charles Ferdinand (thanks to Charlie for confirming his name) also confessed and he was convicted of the murder instead.

    But was Ferdinand wrongfully convicted?


    So my question is...WHY did Bachert confess to the murder?

    Was he up to his old fantasizing tricks again to get attention?

    Or, by making such a confession, does it now promote him to being an actual official suspect in the Jack the Ripper killings? Bearing in mind that I believe the Paris murders and Ripper killings were linked.

    I started a new thread entitled "Bachert NEW timeline evidence...and a confession..."


    Please check it out and give me feedback.


    kindest regards


    RD

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Originally posted by Charlie View Post
    You have the art of teasing, dear DR!
    I can't wait to learn more about your discovery.
    ​Charlie
    Charlie, I have just started a New Thread after all so as not to go off topic on your thread here.

    Although that said, they are linked.


    The new thread... "Bachert NEW timeline evidence...and a confession"


    I have discovered that BEFORE Ferdinand confessed to the murder of Vandamme, a suspect in the Ripper case also made that claim...

    Albert Bachert aka Albert Behaut confessed to the murder in March 1910 shortly after the killing.

    It has been a mystery for decades as to where Bachert went...and I found he went to Paris... but then confessed to dismembering a prostitute.

    Does that increase his likelihood of him having been Jack the Ripper?

    I love this stuff ha ha


    RD

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  • Charlie
    replied
    You have the art of teasing, dear DR!
    I can't wait to learn more about your discovery.
    ​Charlie

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Originally posted by Charlie View Post


    I confirm that Paul-Charles Ferdinand (also known as Antoine Vincenzini) was born in 1882, so he was indeed 28 years old at the time of the Parisian crime in 1910. Therefore, he could not have committed either the Montrouge crime in 1886 or the Rue Botzaris crime in 1892.


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    Hi Charlie


    Thankyou so much for your reply and confirmation of that data.

    I have spent some time reading up on the 1910 case and had initially found Charles Ferdinand, but then subsequently discovered his first name was actually Paul.

    I find the idea that he confessed after the police found the key to the victims room in the drawer of his own room very interesting.
    He initially denied all involvement but then confessed after the police found that room key.

    At least we know conclusively that he couldnt have committed the Rue Botzaris murder or the Montrouge murder due to his age.

    It does highlight that even though there the 1910 and 1892 dismemberment murders were committed in the same area of Paris, that there can be DIFFERENT culprits.

    That may also be applicable to the Torso killings in London.

    I have found something rather fascinating that nobody has discovered before...

    I was going to start a new thread based on something I found, but I may post on here as it concerns the 1910 Paris torso killing.

    RD
    Last edited by The Rookie Detective; 01-17-2024, 07:59 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Charlie
    replied
    New Ford Shunt

    You can confidently remove the "Lestevance" killer from your board. It's a misunderstanding.
    On the other hand, I misspoke in my previous post: I meant to say that, in France, the term "dépeçage" is preferred over "démembrement". Perhaps for your research, you can also try using this term: "dépeçage criminel".

    Thank you,

    Charlie​

    Leave a comment:


  • Charlie
    replied
    Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
    Ferdinand, the Paris Torso killer of 1910; murdered an unfortunate in a room and then dismembered her, but dared to claim she died naturally.
    A prime example of a psychopath right there.
    Was he also the Paris Torso killer in 1892? and 1886?
    RD

    I confirm that Paul-Charles Ferdinand (also known as Antoine Vincenzini) was born in 1882, so he was indeed 28 years old at the time of the Parisian crime in 1910. Therefore, he could not have committed either the Montrouge crime in 1886 or the Rue Botzaris crime in 1892.


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  • Charlie
    replied
    Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
    Excellent post NFS!
    I have a query regarding the data listed for the 1892 Rue Botzaris murder; the data in the table lists the crime as solved, and that the killer was a man named "Lestevance."
    Charlie, I thought that the Rue Botzaris crime was one of the 2 unsolved dismemberment murders that you have linked together on this thread.
    Are you able to corroborate any of the recent data that NFS has posted?
    Lestevance was one of the most violent indivdiuals; having claimed while "intoxicated" that he was the man who dismembered the victim in Rue Botzaris.
    He was suspected of attempting to murder at least 15 women in Paris over the course of just a few months in 1892.
    But what's interesting about him, is that he was from Brittany
    He spoke fluent English, French and Spanish.
    He once shot a woman twice and threw her out a window.
    He also ripped out hair, smashed teeth and inflicted brutal punishments on his victims.
    There are many reports on him in the English press but I had no idea that he was linked to the Botzaris torso murder.
    This is significant because IF he was the killer in 1892, and he is linked by proxy to the 1886 murder in montrouge, then how does this potentially impact on him being a torso killer suspect in areas outside of Paris?
    Was Lestvance convicted of the Rue Boztaris murder?
    RD
    Hello DR,

    I confirm that the Rue Botzaris crime was never solved. There is an error on @Nouveau Ford Shunt's chart. In his memoirs, Marie-François Goron, the head of the Criminal Police (Sûreté) in charge of the case, clearly states this.

    The confusion arises from the fact that, at the time, a certain Lesteven was believed to be the assassin of Rue Botzaris.

    Goron writes the following:

    "Lesteven, who was a braggart of a special kind, and above all, mentally unbalanced, used to amuse himself, when he was drunk, by recounting in bars that it was he who had dismembered the woman on Rue Botzaris."

    Charlie

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  • Charlie
    replied
    Originally posted by New Ford Shunt View Post
    Charlie
    I've trawled the British newspapers and these are the torso cases I've found outside of the UK between 1850 and 1900. They don't include cases of mass dismemberment such as massacres or war-related atrocities.
    Two things should be borne in mind when looking at the list. Firstly, it's very difficult to accurately locate all cases when you are dealing with a search which includes the word 'dismemberment'. This is used in the English language at the time in terms of dismembering a country due to war, or dismembering the British Empire. Therefore I'm sure I've undoubtedly missed some cases. Secondly, the list is based on newspaper reporting so the names, locations etc. may well be incorrect.
    Interestingly, on the cases where we do know a motive, the bodies have been dismembered for disposal purposes, I don't think I've read of one case where there's a homicidal maniac cutting people into pieces and putting them on display - that's not to say there aren't cases like that of course. Anyway, here you go:

    Hello NFS,

    Forgive my lack of response, but the weather in Paris is dreadful, and I've caught a severe cold.
    Congratulations on your chart; it provides a synoptic view of various cases of dismemberment in Europe. In France, during the 19th century, the term "démembrement" was preferred over "dépeçage".
    I'm not sure if you consulted Alexandre Lacassagne's works for your chart, but I want to inform you that he and his followers attempted to create a list similar to yours. You can find two versions:
    • One created in 1888 (excluding the Whitechapel crimes that had not yet occurred).
    • The other, an update of the first, done in 1902 (including the Whitechapel crimes).

    Here are the references:
    P. 229 and following: "Du dépeçage criminel" by Alexandre Lacassagne (Chart on p. 240-247)


    P. 241 and following: Synoptic chart of criminal dismemberments from 1888 to 1902 (by A. de Saint-Vincent de Parois)

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra A
    replied
    Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
    I believe I have just discovered something rather significant regarding a potential connection between the Paris Torso murder of 1910...with someone implicated as a person of interest in the Whitechapel murders.

    Because this thread is solely a discussion on the PARIS torso murders, I will respectfully move my new found data onto a new thread so as not to deviate from the topic of this thread.

    I believe I have discovered something that to the best of my knowledge has not been discovered before... and so after I submit my findings, your collective minds, opinions, and expertise will be much appreciated.

    RD
    Hi RD
    I hope you will place a link to your findings here. I have terrible trouble finding new posts on Casebook, especially those that appear in threads that have no title on the main menu, which includes the Paris torso thread and the torso/ripper link thread. I never had these kinds of problems navigating Casebook until a couple of years ago, now I find it a nightmare. I know I'm getting older but I'm not completely senile yet but I feel it whenever I visit Casebook!

    …apologies for going off topic but it's not really off topic because it concerns how many people can easily access these posts I guess...gawd I AM old, I'm rambling on now.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post

    RD,

    Don't get too imaginative in regard to the "red hands"; I think it likely refers to reddened skin from hard work with soap and water, or chemicals like lye. It might also refer to sun reddened hands. The murderer was posing as a Corsician laundryman, which does suggest contact with hot water, and lyesoap.

    Ferdinand had been transported to a prison colony, before escaping back to France. It's likely that work and weather conditions there left him with "ugly red hands", according to the witness.
    Ah yes, I agree.

    I do get carried away sometimes ha ha!

    Thank you for your comments and feedback, very much appreciated.


    RD

    Leave a comment:


  • Pcdunn
    replied
    Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
    For the 1910 Paris Torso Murder, the man who confessed; Charles Ferdinand, was living under the false name of Vincenzini and played the part of a Corsican Laundryman. He was in fact an escaped convict named Charles Ferdinand who had been deported, but who had escaped and had secretly returned to Paris.

    He was only caught after a "latch Key" belonging to the victim's room, was found in his draw inside his room.

    The killer kept the key in his drawer as a trophy, but the police found it

    (Reminiscent perhaps of Kelly's lost room key...that mysteriously reappeared)

    Elisa Vandamme was a prostitute, who the killer claimed had gone back to his room, but who had died naturally.

    A witness who saw her talking with a man the night before she was murdered, described the man as...

    A man with a slight dark mustache and "ugly red hands" who wore a dark overcoat with the collar turned up.

    The ugly red hands is rather odd.

    red paint?

    red INK?

    Some of the RED STUFF perhaps?


    After killing her in his room, he chose to cut and dismember her and then placed various body parts in various places.

    Her head was said to have been found rolled up in a piece of paper in a doorway and parts of her dismembered torso were found on waste ground in multiple locations.



    The question is... Did Charles Ferdinand murder other prostitutes?

    Did he murder the women in 1892 and 1886 in Paris?

    And did he visit London at any point?


    Lots to ponder

    RD
    RD,

    Don't get too imaginative in regard to the "red hands"; I think it likely refers to reddened skin from hard work with soap and water, or chemicals like lye. It might also refer to sun reddened hands. The murderer was posing as a Corsician laundryman, which does suggest contact with hot water, and lyesoap.

    Ferdinand had been transported to a prison colony, before escaping back to France. It's likely that work and weather conditions there left him with "ugly red hands", according to the witness.

    Leave a comment:

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