The Paris Torso Mystery

[The Rookie Detective]

Duplicate post? not sure how that happened sorry all

[Fisherman]

In terms of potential leads, the Pinchin Street Torso did have the extraordinary incident in which a man who was either the killer, an accomplice, or knew of the murder, appeared to predict a torso would be dumped at a given location BEFORE it even happened.

That is proof that SOMEONE knew that a person had been murdered and/or dismembered and the victim was to be dumped in Pinchin St.

The so-called "Mr Cleary" has been discussed countless times before, yet I still find it baffling how this hasn't been looked into even further.

For a person to openly state that a murder has occurred and a body is present at a given location BEFORE the victim is even dumped at the SAME location, is beyond any rational reasoning.

Cleary or not, whoever this man was, he WAS connected to the Pinchin St murder.


RD

You will find that there are those who are willing to swallow much larger coincidences …

[Fisherman]

One thing that has become abundantly clear to me, Christer, is that nobody can understand these murders, whether WM or TM; without understanding the psychology, and it follows motive, underpinning these rare serial sexual murders.

It would be interesting to hear what those Finnish researchers, promoted as being prominent in their field, would have to say upon analysing the murders attributed to them; particularly with regard to same man or otherwise.

We cannot know how close or distant whatever guess we make about the underlying personal psychology comes. So what we must rely upon is factually established similarities. And the rarer they are, the more likely it becomes that the similarities reveal a common originator.

It is the same throughout, regardless if we look at the WM or the TM; factual evidence must take precendence over guesswork, no matter how inspired it is.

However, I donīt regard it as psychological guesswork that both series represent cases of aggressive eviscerations and dismemberment. The driving force behind them is either closely related or the exact same in my book. And the utter scarcity of this kind of perp speaks very much for the latter option.

[Fisherman]

jerry dunlop has found contemporaneous sources claiming one killer for both series but i can't remember who/ what it was.

Thanks, Abby. Yes, the official line was two series, two killers - but if Abberline was entertaining the idea that Chapman was the killer, joining up spouse poisoning with aggressive evisceration cases, then the distance between one aggressive eviscerator and another seems easy enough to bridge. I just cannot find the name now.

[The Rookie Detective]

In terms of potential leads, the Pinchin Street Torso did have the extraordinary incident in which a man who was either the killer, an accomplice, or knew of the murder, appeared to predict a torso would be dumped at a given location BEFORE it even happened.

That is proof that SOMEONE knew that a person had been murdered and/or dismembered and the victim was to be dumped in Pinchin St.

The so-called "Mr Cleary" has been discussed countless times before, yet I still find it baffling how this hasn't been looked into even further.

For a person to openly state that a murder has occurred and a body is present at a given location BEFORE the victim is even dumped at the SAME location, is beyond any rational reasoning.

Cleary or not, whoever this man was, he WAS connected to the Pinchin St murder.


RD

[Fleetwood Mac]

These are fascinating matters, and they have a very apparent bearing on the combined cases we are looking at, so I am joining you in making further studies of it.

One thing that has become abundantly clear to me, Christer, is that nobody can understand these murders, whether WM or TM; without understanding the psychology, and it follows motive, underpinning these rare serial sexual murders.

It would be interesting to hear what those Finnish researchers, promoted as being prominent in their field, would have to say upon analysing the murders attributed to them; particularly with regard to same man or otherwise.

[Abby Normal]

Not off the top of my head, but I have seen it mentioned. It would have become an official line over time that there were two killers.

jerry dunlop has found contemporaneous sources claiming one killer for both series but i can't remember who/ what it was.

[Abby Normal]

Aye, RD, I reckon that's the point.

Both would have taken a great deal of pleasure from acts borne of sexual gratification.

I was reading a thread on JTR Forums this morning, and from what I can tell abortion was ruled out in the case of at least one of the torso murders, based on medical testimony.

In that event, you have someone who mutilated the body for pleasure, just like the WM, and it follows dismembered bodies for pleasure (offensive dismemberment).

I appreciate that it's debated as to whether or not the WM attempted to decapitate Annie, but either way this is someone who took pleasure from overkill (the throat wound wasn't merely a cut throat, Dr Phillips believed it was an attempt to decapitate the head such was the savage nature of that wound).

only one of tje torso victims was pregnant, elizabeth jackson.

[Fisherman]

Can you name any?

Not off the top of my head, but I have seen it mentioned. It would have become an official line over time that there were two killers.

[Fisherman]

Even today, opinions are still divided, although the majority seems to believe that both series of murders were committed by the same perpetrator.
Regarding the works dealing with the Thames Torso Killer:

• "The Thames Torso Murders of Victorian London" by R. Michael Gordon, McFarland & Company (2002): According to the author, Jack the Ripper and the Thames Torso Killer are one and the same person, namely George Chapman, alias Seweryn Antonowicz Kłosowski, a Polish serial killer whom some police officers of the time suspected could be the Whitechapel murderer.

• "The Thames Torso Murders" by M. J. Trow, Wharncliffe (2011): According to the author, Jack the Ripper and the Thames Torso Killer are two different killers, but he does not propose a suspect's name for either. In the final chapter, he merely suggests that the Torso Killer could be one of the many cat's meat men who roamed the streets of the East End.

• "Jack and the Thames Torso Murders: A New Ripper?" by Drew Gray and Andrew Wise, Amberley Publishing (2019): According to the authors, Jack the Ripper and the Thames Torso Killer are one and the same person, namely James Hardiman (1859-1891), a cat's meat man who lived in the Whitechapel area, not far from the Ripper's murders.

• "Cutting Point: Solving the Jack the Ripper and the Thames Torso Murders" by Christer Holmgren, Timaios Press (2021): According to the author, Jack the Ripper and the Thames Torso Killer are one and the same person, namely Charles Allen Lechmere.

Personally, I tend to believe that they are two different murderers. But that's just my opinion.

I īm with Christer Holmgren on this. In fact, I am Christer Holmgren.

Another author who saw the series as originating with one man only was Richard Whittington Egan, by the way.

But it is no popularity contest, it is about case facts, of course.

[Fleetwood Mac]

The bottom line is that the Ripper and the Torso killer enjoyed their respective mutilation and dismemberment of their victims, and that could indicate they were the same man because their inherent intent and outcome is the same.

RD

Aye, RD, I reckon that's the point.

Both would have taken a great deal of pleasure from acts borne of sexual gratification.

I was reading a thread on JTR Forums this morning, and from what I can tell abortion was ruled out in the case of at least one of the torso murders, based on medical testimony.

In that event, you have someone who mutilated the body for pleasure, just like the WM, and it follows dismembered bodies for pleasure (offensive dismemberment).

I appreciate that it's debated as to whether or not the WM attempted to decapitate Annie, but either way this is someone who took pleasure from overkill (the throat wound wasn't merely a cut throat, Dr Phillips believed it was an attempt to decapitate the head such was the savage nature of that wound).

[The Rookie Detective]

What do the abbreviations you use refer to? For example, WM? Should I read it as "Whitechapel Murders"?
And OP?…

Yes "WM" is indeed an abbreviation of "Whitechapel Murders"

RD

[Fleetwood Mac]

perhaps the apparent differences between the two series can be explained by the ripper series victims were when he didnt have access to his chop shop and had to kill on the street?

A knife may be able to do it, something along the lines of a butcher's knife.

A study of such murders in India found a saw or a serrated knife (a knife with teeth in the cutting side) was usually the weapon of choice.

Jeffrey Dahmer used a knife to dismember his victims but I can't find much on what type of knife.

Either way, any knife without a serrated blade would certainly take a lot longer than a saw to do it, and so time constraints would have been an issue for the WM also.

[Charlie]

Even today, opinions are still divided, although the majority seems to believe that both series of murders were committed by the same perpetrator.
Regarding the works dealing with the Thames Torso Killer:

• "The Thames Torso Murders of Victorian London" by R. Michael Gordon, McFarland & Company (2002): According to the author, Jack the Ripper and the Thames Torso Killer are one and the same person, namely George Chapman, alias Seweryn Antonowicz Kłosowski, a Polish serial killer whom some police officers of the time suspected could be the Whitechapel murderer.

• "The Thames Torso Murders" by M. J. Trow, Wharncliffe (2011): According to the author, Jack the Ripper and the Thames Torso Killer are two different killers, but he does not propose a suspect's name for either. In the final chapter, he merely suggests that the Torso Killer could be one of the many cat's meat men who roamed the streets of the East End.

• "Jack and the Thames Torso Murders: A New Ripper?" by Drew Gray and Andrew Wise, Amberley Publishing (2019): According to the authors, Jack the Ripper and the Thames Torso Killer are one and the same person, namely James Hardiman (1859-1891), a cat's meat man who lived in the Whitechapel area, not far from the Ripper's murders.

• "Cutting Point: Solving the Jack the Ripper and the Thames Torso Murders" by Christer Holmgren, Timaios Press (2021): According to the author, Jack the Ripper and the Thames Torso Killer are one and the same person, namely Charles Allen Lechmere.

Personally, I tend to believe that they are two different murderers. But that's just my opinion.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

There were those who reasoned about a single perpetrator, but they were outnumbered by the ones who spoke of two.

Can you name any?