The case evidence and its implications

[Fisherman]

If we are to assign odds, we'd better be a darned sight more precise with our criteria than Fisherman is.

Said the guy who tells us that it is a near certainty that a man who manually dumped a torso in Pinchin Street lived in the West End. That is of course a precise enough statement - precisely as wrong as it can be, that is to say.

You know, Gareth, trying to spread dung like this is not your normal standards, or at least it didn't use to be. Maybe I bring out the real you?

[Abby Normal]

Quite high, actually. The Whitechapel murders appear to be "stranger-crimes" with the victims chosen at random, which as you well know are a bugger to solve today, let alone pre-forensics. And in the Torso case, the victims were obviously never identified, except one who was a prostitute, which made the process a syphian task. Their only hope was to catch someone in the act of murder/disposal, a confession or an eyewitness.

hi Harry
two unsolved serial murders. I would say very very low. add in two post mortem serial killers and all the other similarities and the series ends at the same time.

and I would say that both were unsolved due to another similarity-they were both so adept at what they did they were able to ruse victims to a place where they could kill, mutilate, display/dump the parts in open and public places, involving extreme risk, get away without being caught in the act, many times just in the nick of time. and stay uncaught and unsolved for a 150 years. no. the chances of this is extremely low.

[bolo]

Hi Fisherman, all,

we don't know for sure if organs had been taken from the Torso victims, the state of facts simply does not allow to tell whether the organs were missing as a consequence of the dismemberment or actually had been taken out of the body by the killer and were significant to him.

Same with the dismemberment. It could have been part of the "fun" for the killer but also a simple way to hinder ID and make getting rid of the bodies easier. We cannot tell for sure.

Was the placement of body parts in a dark vault in NSY a message, a makeshift solution or fluke? We cannot tell for sure.

Was the body part found on the Shelley estate a emergency drop, a message from the Even Newer Prometheus or coincidence? We cannot tell for sure.

Were all Torso victims prostitutes? We cannot tell for sure.

Was there any significance in the dumping of the body parts in the Thames and various places on land? We cannot tell for sure.

What was the cause of death of the Torso victims? At least Hebbert was unable to tell in all cases but one.

And so it goes on and on. There may be similarities between Torsoman and the Ripper but they're only striking on the first look IMHO. If one keeps in mind that most of them are open to interpretation due to lack of evidence, the list sort of falls apart. It certainly is not wrong to assume that certain injuries that are present in both the Torso and Ripper cases may point to a common killer but at the same time it's definitely is not wrong to say that the injuries could have been the result of the dismemberment and were not intentional or part of an important ritual.

Of course you could say that two serial killers at work at the same time in London might be unlikely but that does not change the scope of the available facts one bit (see above). If anything, it opens up another valid alley of interpretation but in the end, it's all speculation and should be taken as such to avoid going in circles.

I go with what we have and remain on my not very comfortable seat on the fence until further notice.

Grüße,

Boris

[Fisherman]

Hi Fisherman, all,

we don't know for sure if organs had been taken from the Torso victims, the state of facts simply does not allow to tell whether the organs were missing as a consequence of the dismemberment or actually had been taken out of the body by the killer and were significant to him.

Same with the dismemberment. It could have been part of the "fun" for the killer but also a simple way to hinder ID and make getting rid of the bodies easier. We cannot tell for sure.

Was the placement of body parts in a dark vault in NSY a message, a makeshift solution or fluke? We cannot tell for sure.

Was the body part found on the Shelley estate a emergency drop, a message from the Even Newer Prometheus or coincidence? We cannot tell for sure.

Were all Torso victims prostitutes? We cannot tell for sure.

Was there any significance in the dumping of the body parts in the Thames and various places on land? We cannot tell for sure.

What was the cause of death of the Torso victims? At least Hebbert was unable to tell in all cases but one.

And so it goes on and on. There may be similarities between Torsoman and the Ripper but they're only striking on the first look IMHO. If one keeps in mind that most of them are open to interpretation due to lack of evidence, the list sort of falls apart. It certainly is not wrong to assume that certain injuries that are present in both the Torso and Ripper cases may point to a common killer but at the same time it's definitely is not wrong to say that the injuries could have been the result of the dismemberment and were not intentional or part of an important ritual.

Of course you could say that two serial killers at work at the same time in London might be unlikely but that does not change the scope of the available facts one bit (see above). If anything, it opens up another valid alley of interpretation but in the end, it's all speculation and should be taken as such to avoid going in circles.

I go with what we have and remain on my not very comfortable seat on the fence until further notice.

Grüße,

Boris

Its my turn to sigh now, Bolo.

The uterus from Jacksons body was CUT OUT of the body. After that, it was wrapped up together with the cord and the placenta (also cut out from the body, now isn't that a coincidence? Or two?) and placed inside a parcel made up by the two flaps taken from the abdominal wall. And the baby was cut out of the uterus before that parcel was made and floated down the Thames.

We are never going to get any clearer proof of a conscious act on behalf of the killer than that. Never.

If you consider that parcel to be the result of the uterus coming out of the body by mistake and the cord and placenta joining up for fun, then you are wrong. The idea is flabbergasting. End of story.

Add to that how Hebbert said that thebheart and the lungs were "removed" from the body. By whom, do you think? Father Time?

And "there may be similarities"? MAY?

Sweet Jesus...!

Hang around on that fence for as long as you want to, Bolo, but get the facts correct, please.

[bolo]

Its my turn to sigh now, Bolo.

The uterus from Jacksons body was CUT OUT of the body. After that, it was wrapped up together with the cord and the placenta (also cut out from the body, now isn't that a coincidence? Or two?) and placed inside a parcel made up by the two flaps taken from the abdominal wall. And the baby was cut out of the uterus before that parcel was made and floated down the Thames.

We are never going to get any clearer proof of a conscious act on behalf of the killer than that. Never.

If you consider that parcel to be the result of the uterus coming out of the body by mistake and the cord and placenta joining up for fun, then you are wrong. The idea is flabbergasting. End of story.

And "there may be similarities"? MAY?

Sweet Jesus...!

Sweet Jesus indeed.

If you actually would have read and contextually reacted to what I've said several times now and not just picked on some out-of-context element in order to defend your version of the story, the discussion would be way less sigh-sigh and eye rolling for the both of us.

[Stacker]

I have an issue with connecting the 1873 and 1874 Torsos to the 1887-1889+ Torsos for a major reason:

Unless we can find some additional Torso Victims in between that time frame, its an unrealistically long time frame for a murderer to take a break from killing. Its only 1 year less than the break that the Grim Sleeper serial killer was at 1 point alleged to have taken, which earned him a very dated and inaccurate nickname, as additional murders in between those years were later connected to him. Adjusting for changes in expected human lifespans between them, this is an even longer gap than the gap the Grim Sleeper was falsely believed to have taken.

[Abby Normal]

I have an issue with connecting the 1873 and 1874 Torsos to the 1887-1889+ Torsos for a major reason:

Unless we can find some additional Torso Victims in between that time frame, its an unrealistically long time frame for a murderer to take a break from killing. Its only 1 year less than the break that the Grim Sleeper serial killer was at 1 point alleged to have taken, which earned him a very dated and inaccurate nickname, as additional murders in between those years were later connected to him. Adjusting for changes in expected human lifespans between them, this is an even longer gap than the gap the Grim Sleeper was falsely believed to have taken.

Well theres the 84 torso, but its still about ten years difference. That being said, serial killers do sometimes lay dormant for many years, although ten years is quite a long time.

[Kattrup]

Hi Fisherman, all,

we don't know for sure if organs had been taken from the Torso victims, the state of facts simply does not allow to tell whether the organs were missing as a consequence of the dismemberment or actually had been taken out of the body by the killer and were significant to him.

Same with the dismemberment. It could have been part of the "fun" for the killer but also a simple way to hinder ID and make getting rid of the bodies easier. We cannot tell for sure.

Was the placement of body parts in a dark vault in NSY a message, a makeshift solution or fluke? We cannot tell for sure.

Was the body part found on the Shelley estate a emergency drop, a message from the Even Newer Prometheus or coincidence? We cannot tell for sure.

Were all Torso victims prostitutes? We cannot tell for sure.

Was there any significance in the dumping of the body parts in the Thames and various places on land? We cannot tell for sure.

What was the cause of death of the Torso victims? At least Hebbert was unable to tell in all cases but one.

And so it goes on and on. There may be similarities between Torsoman and the Ripper but they're only striking on the first look IMHO. If one keeps in mind that most of them are open to interpretation due to lack of evidence, the list sort of falls apart. It certainly is not wrong to assume that certain injuries that are present in both the Torso and Ripper cases may point to a common killer but at the same time it's definitely is not wrong to say that the injuries could have been the result of the dismemberment and were not intentional or part of an important ritual.

Of course you could say that two serial killers at work at the same time in London might be unlikely but that does not change the scope of the available facts one bit (see above). If anything, it opens up another valid alley of interpretation but in the end, it's all speculation and should be taken as such to avoid going in circles.

I go with what we have and remain on my not very comfortable seat on the fence until further notice.

Grüße,

Boris

Excellent post, Bolo, I agree completely. Except for the part about the fence. There’s no fence: police and medical examiners at the time concluded the two series were not related.
It will take a very strong argument to disregard the judgement of the professional contemporaries. No such argument has so far been presented.
Drew Gray’s book on this topic coming out in May? will be interesting, I’m sure.

[Fisherman]

Sweet Jesus indeed.

If you actually would have read and contextually reacted to what I've said several times now and not just picked on some out-of-context element in order to defend your version of the story, the discussion would be way less sigh-sigh and eye rolling for the both of us.

Just qualify the exact point you want me to react to, if that is the case. You cannot possibly write that we cannot say that organs were plucked out of any of the torso victims and expect me NOT to react!

Make your point, and I will answer.

[Fisherman]

I have an issue with connecting the 1873 and 1874 Torsos to the 1887-1889+ Torsos for a major reason:

Unless we can find some additional Torso Victims in between that time frame, its an unrealistically long time frame for a murderer to take a break from killing. Its only 1 year less than the break that the Grim Sleeper serial killer was at 1 point alleged to have taken, which earned him a very dated and inaccurate nickname, as additional murders in between those years were later connected to him. Adjusting for changes in expected human lifespans between them, this is an even longer gap than the gap the Grim Sleeper was falsely believed to have taken.

IF there is a gap, that is - we actually don't know that. But we DO have examples of serial killers where we know exactly how many people they killed and when they did it. One such example is Jeffrey Dahmer, who had a nine-and-a-half year hiatus between victims one and two. And typically in serial murder, there will be a longer pause between the first victims than what is the case further down the line, although a hiatus of many years is not a common thing.

There is a very good reason for linking the 1873 murder to the murder of Mary Kelly, as I have often said. I am not yet prepared to disclose that reason, but it is there and it is compelling, I can say that much.
There is also the fact that all of these victims had in common that they were skillfully cut up and they were all cut up in very close connection to their respective deaths.

Apart from that, you have a good point. We are looking at something that should normally allow for doubt as to the originator being the same.

[Fisherman]

Well theres the 84 torso, but its still about ten years difference. That being said, serial killers do sometimes lay dormant for many years, although ten years is quite a long time.

Plus there is a three year hiatus between 84 and 87, so any way we look at things, the gaps are there. And we cannot tell if they are genuine gaps, since we cannot establish the victim count. There may be victims that we have not heard of.

[Fisherman]

Excellent post, Bolo, I agree completely. Except for the part about the fence. There’s no fence: police and medical examiners at the time concluded the two series were not related.
It will take a very strong argument to disregard the judgement of the professional contemporaries. No such argument has so far been presented.
Drew Gray’s book on this topic coming out in May? will be interesting, I’m sure.

Such an argument HAS been presented, but you have not been able to understand it or accept it, Kattrup. The insights into the psychology of dismemberment killers, mutilators and eviscerators did not allow for making the connection. There was an understanding that dismemberment was always about hiding a deed/being able to transport the parts. The concept of offensive dismemberment was not on the map. The perhaps clearest example of this is when Hebbert, trying to tell the Ripper and the Torso killer apart, says that the Riper even took out organs from his victims! since we are acutely aware that the torso killer did that too, we can see and understand the problems involved for the victorians.

I note that you are very eager to speak of professional capacity when it comes to parts that you like, whereas the professional capacity Hebbert exhibited when saying that the four 87-89 victims were cut by the same hand is one instance where professionalism means very little to you, and you have no problems sidestepping THAT professional verdict.

Telling, is it not?

[Kattrup]

Such an argument HAS been presented, but you have not been able to understand it or accept it, Kattrup. The insights into the psychology of dismemberment killers, mutilators and eviscerators did not allow for making the connection. There was an understanding that dismemberment was always about hiding a deed/being able to transport the parts. The concept of offensive dismemberment was not on the map. The perhaps clearest example of this is when Hebbert, trying to tell the Ripper and the Torso killer apart, says that the Riper even took out organs from his victims! since we are acutely aware that the torso killer did that too, we can see and understand the problems involved for the victorians.

I note that you are very eager to speak of professional capacity when it comes to parts that you like, whereas the professional capacity Hebbert exhibited when saying that the four 87-89 victims were cut by the same hand is one instance where professionalism means very little to you, and you have no problems sidestepping THAT professional verdict.

Telling, is it not?

I accept Hebbert’s and the police’s opinion.

as for the other argument, I don’t consider it very strong.

Travelling now so brief in answering, sorry

[Fisherman]

I accept Hebbert’s and the police’s opinion.

as for the other argument, I don’t consider it very strong.

Travelling now so brief in answering, sorry

What you need to accept is that the level of insights within the professionals will govern the level of trust we should put in them. To be fair, that IS a no-brainer, right? The judicial authorities used to think that a woman thrown in a pond would float if she was a witch. It was the professional insight level of the day, and there were professionals hired to sniff the witches out, but I would strongly advice against believing in their "facts".
Hebbert was fit to describe exactly how a wound looked and what could have caused it, but he was NOT fit to understand the concept of offensive dismemberment, since it was unheard of in victorian times.

Have a good journey!

[Trevor Marriott]

We are never going to get any clearer proof of a conscious act on behalf of the killer than that. Never.

Yes there was a conscious act to cut up the bodies, but the question is, and it is not one to which there is a definitive answer, and that is who was the person or persons who did those acts of cutting up. You suggest a killer, but for that to be a plausible explanation you first have to prove a homicide, and in these torsos there is no definitive evidence, other that inferences that you and others have drawn from the speculative opinions given by these medical men in some cases, despite there being no direct evidence to show causes of death, and in some case coroners verdicts were recored as "found dead"

As to Jackson the facts surrounding her demises clearly give rise to the inference that she was not the victim of a homicide, yet you continually use her as a yardstick to support what you suggest happened to the other torsos and their dismemberment's.

You and other have been told many time that much on what victorian doctors stated is now shown to be nothing more than opinions which modern day medicine does not support.

As to the suggestions that if there was a killer, he had some bolthole where he took the victims to and then murdered and dismembered them there. This also does not stand up to close scrutiny. The killers bolthole would not change, so a killer not having transport would need to pick up a woman fairly close to that bolthole, and he would not want to risk going back and forth any great distance with an assortment of body parts to dispose of them, and the fact that body parts were dumped or thrown from different locations suggest he didnt have transport or else he might have taken all the body parts in one go from his bolthole.

The fact that it would seem that these torso women appeared to frequent different areas of London, and the body parts dumped from and in different locations, is also interesting. As to picking up women if he had a bolthole in Whitechapel would a woman from another part of London walk with him that great distance to engage in sex, when prostitutes were territorial and would know where to go within their known territory.

Aa has been said before there are other plausible explanations as to how these women met there demise and their bodies dismembered other than by being murdered.

Are there any other instances where body parts of women have been found in the thames or any other waterways oustide of what you have documented where it has been proven that they were murdered?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk