torso maps

[Michael W Richards]

.

"THE POLICE AT WORK

The ablest officers were detailed to work up the case, but the fullest investigation of the meagre facts at their disposal failed to lead to the apprehension of the murderer. They however arrived at a conclusion which, if correct, tends to explode the almost universally-held theory that these horrible crimes are all the work of a single miscreant. Carefully calculating the time it would take to cover the ground between Berners (sic) street and Mitre Square and having approximately fixed the hour at which each murder was committed they were forced to the conclusion that if the same man murdered both the women Catharine Beddowes (sic) must have met him by appointment in Mitre Square, as the supposition that he found her in this unfrequented place at the exact moment he desired was clearly untenable"

--

That's a great quote Varqm. I feel that the circumstantial evidence in that case could easily lead one to believe that Kate was seeking to blackmail parties she believed were responsible for the killings. Whether she was right or wrong, if this suggestion is correct, if those parties were involved in some kind of criminal activities and needed to blend in with the tapestry there, she posed a threat. The suggestion of the meeting is also interesting because the people who would know what time she would be released were the Police at Bishopsgate.

[Harry D]

Prostitutes are frequent targets for violence and, in the LVP, murder. They're also prime candidates for having lifted skirts, so not much can be read into that either. Her neck and abdominal wounds weren't particularly of the Ripper variety, viz

Sure, violence and murder are occupational hazards for prostitutes but how many of them were murdered in that manner before and after 1888/89?

Besides... Pinchin and Jackson were different from McKenzie, and from one another.

McKenzie had abdominal mutilation, Pinchin had abdominal mutilation, Jackson had abdominal mutilation and organ removal.

[Sam Flynn]

"Mutilation" isn't a specific enough term on its own. The nature of the mutilations needs to be objectively taken into account and, less objectively, the potential explanations for them.

[Abby Normal]

I don’t think that, if they weren’t one & the same, Torso Man cut out the uterus in Ripper-style to throw off suspicion, simply because there wasn’t any suspicion in either of the series. I suggest he may have done it to attract more media attention to the torso murders as I'm sure he was aware of the newspaper coverage the Ripper murders got. That is in line with the placing/dumping of body parts at Whitehall, Tottenham Court Road, the Shelley garden and Pinchin Street. Or (in line with what Christer is thinking) he may have done it because he had never actually taken a victim apart in that fashion. Or perhaps a bit of both. Anyway, I'm not married to the idea that they must have influenced each other.

Just like history doesn’t bear out one serial killer committing 2 series as separate & distinct (with regards to MO and striking frequency) as Torso Man and the Ripper.
I see absolutely no evidence to support the idea of 2 men working together, regardless of whether such a thing is borne out by history or not.

Cheers Abby,
Frank

Hi frank
But history does show one man committing different series. The recent golden state killer is a prime example.

And re two men working together... well it is borne out by history also and i think jerry has some good ideas about that concept here also!

[Fisherman]

Hi frank
But history does show one man committing different series. The recent golden state killer is a prime example.

And what happened when the Golden State killer was at large? Well, aome numbnuts with the police said that "Nah, a serial burglar won´t start raping" and "Nah, a rapist will not turn a murderer just like that, these were two men with different agendas".

And all the while, a little number of detectives pointed to the odd similarities - how all three series involved the killer securing multiple getaway routes out of the houses, how dishes were used as alarm systems, how the perp seemed to choose personal items over valuable ones when he took things away...

It was very evident all the time that there was just the one burglar, rapist AND killer - but people had a hard time understanding how such a person could move inbetween different crime types.

Good example, Abby!

[Varqm]

That's a great quote Varqm. I feel that the circumstantial evidence in that case could easily lead one to believe that Kate was seeking to blackmail parties she believed were responsible for the killings. Whether she was right or wrong, if this suggestion is correct, if those parties were involved in some kind of criminal activities and needed to blend in with the tapestry there, she posed a threat. The suggestion of the meeting is also interesting because the people who would know what time she would be released were the Police at Bishopsgate.

The possibility of Kate seeking appointments for blackmail,or to gain something,let alone knew who the killer was (how did she know?), I think was very remote.The implication was somebody was trying to have an appointment with Kate to lure her into Mitre Square to be butchered.If one killer it could have been a appointment as the article suggests but a likelier reason was it was a coincidence,but to me the likeliest/simplest explanation was there were 2 killers doing 2 different things.
The full article is Philadelphia something in Press Reports section of this site.
Can you expound on the circumstantial evidence?

---

[RockySullivan]

"Mutilation" isn't a specific enough term on its own. The nature of the mutilations needs to be objectively taken into account and, less objectively, the potential explanations for them.

Sam, you're a jackass.

Alice McKenzie Injuries:

Cause of death from severance of the left carotid artery.
Two stabs in the left side of the neck 'carried forward in the same skin wound.'
Some bruising on chest.
Five bruises or marks on left side of abdomen.
Cut was made from left to right, apparently while McKenzie was on the ground.
A long (seven-inch) 'but not unduly deep' wound from the bottom of the left breast to the navel.
Seven or eight scratches beginning at the navel and pointing toward the genitalia.
Small cut across the mons veneris.

[Sam Flynn]

The possibility of Kate seeking appointments...

Can you expound on the circumstantial evidence?

Please do any expounding on an Eddowes thread, Michael. This one's about the Torso cases specifically.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, you're a jackass.

Ad hominem.

[FrankO]

First: apologies if you were offended by my post. I never intended that.

Apologies accepted, Christer, no harm done.

We both have difficulties accepting the other man´s bid, reasonably because we both try to make as rational a choice as possible when we try to assess what happened.

The funny thing is...

...There is also a further parameter - the one I will not divulge as of yet - that I believe cements the suggestion of a single killer. But that should be no problem to you; if I can say there is, but refuse to reveal it then you can do the exact same on your behalf!

Otherwise, a balanced and good post. I agree that we don’t have all the cards on hand and am afraid that the ones we don’t have (or most of ‘m, anyway) are forever lost to us. But you never know! I am curious about this parameter you won’t divulge of as yet, though - but all in due time.

All the best, Christer!

[RockySullivan]

There is also a further parameter - the one I will not divulge as of yet - that I believe cements the suggestion of a single killer. But that should be no problem to you; if I can say there is, but refuse to reveal it then you can do the exact same on your behalf!

While we can't say how many actual killers there were or mutilators or whether the one doing the killing was the mutilator. But what we do know is there no chance it was a coincide a man went to the press the day before a torso was found in Whitehall and John Arnold did the exact same thing with Pinchin. Either has to be a killer with a big mouth or a killer with an accomplice who has a big mouth.

[FrankO]

Hi frank
But history does show one man committing different series. The recent golden state killer is a prime example.

Hi Abby,

I appreciate your persistence! The Golden State killer is indeed a prime example of a serial killer committing 3 distinctly different & subsequent series, but, again, they lack the change from (sometimes) doing things safely indoors to (often) doing things outdoors. DeAngelo committed (almost) all his ransackings, rapes and murders indoors and with every new series he slowed his attacking pace down.

The best,
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

The Golden State killer is indeed a prime example of a serial killer committing 3 distinctly different & subsequent series, but, again, they lack the change from (sometimes) doing things safely indoors to (often) doing things outdoors. DeAngelo committed (almost) all his ransackings, rapes and murders indoors and with every new series he slowed his attacking pace down.

His "career" seems to have occupied three different phases. He murdered one man during his ransacking phase, and killed a couple during his rape phase, but in both instances he was either challenged or the victims were gunned down while running away (he also used his gun, non-fatally, on a separate occasion, but only in response to a policeman accosting him). During his murder phase, his favoured method was to bludgeon his victims to death as a postlude to rape.

Overall, DeAngelo strikes me a clear case of escalation, not someone alternating between different MOs during the same period of time.

[Abby Normal]

While we can't say how many actual killers there were or mutilators or whether the one doing the killing was the mutilator. But what we do know is there no chance it was a coincide a man went to the press the day before a torso was found in Whitehall and John Arnold did the exact same thing with Pinchin. Either has to be a killer with a big mouth or a killer with an accomplice who has a big mouth.

if true-the killer messing with people.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I appreciate your persistence! The Golden State killer is indeed a prime example of a serial killer committing 3 distinctly different & subsequent series, but, again, they lack the change from (sometimes) doing things safely indoors to (often) doing things outdoors. DeAngelo committed (almost) all his ransackings, rapes and murders indoors and with every new series he slowed his attacking pace down.

The best,
Frank

and I appreciate yours. But, as the norm with folks on the other side of this debate-everytime we give a similarity you drill down to more detail to highlight more and more minute differences in response. Down the minutia hole we go.

you can play that game with everything. we could do it between the differences between the ripper murders to argue all the victims were killed by different men.


The fact of the matter is that history has born out with serial killers:

They change there MO-sometimes drastically

They even change their their sig-depending on fantasy and escalation.

They change time frames, stop for long periods and change frequency.


Now re GSK and torso/ripper- The ripper killed indoors-mary Kelly. we assume Torsoman did but perhaps not with all. Whitehall some have put forth she was killed there.


GSK-depending on the circs-killed outdoors-the maggiores and Claude Snelling. Also, tried to abduct and bring out of the house a couple of times.


One really does have to take all this-changing circs for the killer, change and or escalation in fantasy etc., into account when looking at apparent differences (when there are so many other similarities) for accurate analysis IMHO.