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  • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    His "career" seems to have occupied three different phases. He murdered one man during his ransacking phase, and killed a couple during his rape phase, but in both instances he was either challenged or the victims were gunned down while running away (he also used his gun, non-fatally, on a separate occasion, but only in response to a policeman accosting him). During his murder phase, his favoured method was to bludgeon his victims to death as a postlude to rape.
    Thanks for the additional information, Gareth.
    Overall, DeAngelo strikes me a clear case of escalation, not someone alternating between different MOs during the same period of time.
    I agree. The second part of what you wrote here is another reason why he's not a prime example of what I'm looking for.
    "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
    Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

    Comment


    • My pleasure, Frank, and I agree with your take on the matter, too.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
        Thanks for the additional information, Gareth.
        I agree. The second part of what you wrote here is another reason why he's not a prime example of what I'm looking for.
        Just off the top of my head:
        Panzram
        Albert fish
        HH Holmes
        Ted Bundy
        Shawcross
        Zodiac
        Henry Lee Lucas
        Herbert Mullin
        Richard Chase
        etc.

        many serial killers who changes there MO, sig, timeframes even Victomology! based on circs, changing fanatsy, escalation. Any one (usually more) of there victims could have been, and were, thought to have been from another killer because of differences.


        you guys really need to get out more. ; )
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
          His "career" seems to have occupied three different phases. He murdered one man during his ransacking phase, and killed a couple during his rape phase, but in both instances he was either challenged or the victims were gunned down while running away (he also used his gun, non-fatally, on a separate occasion, but only in response to a policeman accosting him). During his murder phase, his favoured method was to bludgeon his victims to death as a postlude to rape.

          Overall, DeAngelo strikes me a clear case of escalation, not someone alternating between different MOs during the same period of time.
          and then we have the boston strangler-who went from raping and killing to back to just raping.
          even during the raping and killing stage-he had different MOs-strangled, beat and stabbed to death different victims. and of vastly different ages. many though different killers.
          Last edited by Abby Normal; 08-15-2018, 08:56 AM.
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
            Hi Abby,

            I appreciate your persistence! The Golden State killer is indeed a prime example of a serial killer committing 3 distinctly different & subsequent series, but, again, they lack the change from (sometimes) doing things safely indoors to (often) doing things outdoors. DeAngelo committed (almost) all his ransackings, rapes and murders indoors and with every new series he slowed his attacking pace down.

            The best,
            Frank
            This isn't true lots of outdoor activity & he switches his mo up a lot. Great example of many series not being linked to one offender because people are so insistent offenders cant variate or move.
            Last edited by RockySullivan; 08-15-2018, 11:22 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
              Just off the top of my head:
              Panzram
              Albert fish
              HH Holmes
              Ted Bundy
              Shawcross
              Zodiac
              Henry Lee Lucas
              Herbert Mullin
              Richard Chase
              etc.

              many serial killers who changes there MO, sig, timeframes even Victomology!
              Just off the top of my head, not really.
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by RockySullivan View Post
                This isn't true lots of outdoor activity & he switches his mo up a lot. Great example of many series not being linked to one offender because people are so insistent offenders cant variate or move.
                He didn't mix things up, but evolved in escalating stages, each exhibiting distinct characteristics. More of a progression than a variety act.
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                  Just off the top of my head:
                  Panzram
                  Albert fish
                  HH Holmes
                  Ted Bundy
                  Shawcross
                  Zodiac
                  Henry Lee Lucas
                  Herbert Mullin
                  Richard Chase
                  etc.

                  many serial killers who changes there MO, sig, timeframes even Victomology! based on circs, changing fanatsy, escalation. Any one (usually more) of there victims could have been, and were, thought to have been from another killer because of differences.
                  What I’m looking for, Abby, is at least 2 distinct & subsequent series:
                  - with at the very least 3 victims in each series
                  - in which all murders (but for the exception) were committed at different dates or locations
                  - the following series was at a distinctly higher frequency than the first
                  - the first series suggesting a planner, the following a doer (little or no planning)
                  Victimology & change of weapon/mode to kill are unimportant.

                  Cheers,
                  Frank
                  "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                  Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
                    What I’m looking for, Abby, is at least 2 distinct & subsequent series:
                    - with at the very least 3 victims in each series
                    - in which all murders (but for the exception) were committed at different dates or locations
                    - the following series was at a distinctly higher frequency than the first
                    - the first series suggesting a planner, the following a doer (little or no planning)
                    Victimology & change of weapon/mode to kill are unimportant.

                    Cheers,
                    Frank

                    Sure-the torsoripper.

                    But seriously Frank this is another example of the minutia rabbit hole.your never going to find two serial killers alike with this much detail.

                    No one can even answer this very broad one- have there ever been two eviscerating serial killers operating in the same city at the same time before?
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                      He didn't mix things up, but evolved in escalating stages, each exhibiting distinct characteristics. More of a progression than a variety act.
                      False

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                        But seriously Frank this is another example of the minutia rabbit hole.
                        It's not a "minutiae rabbit hole", it's merely taking things down one level, which hardly constitutes "minutiae". For example:

                        Level 1 - Same area
                        Level 2 - Opposite ends of a large city

                        Level 1 - Neck wounds
                        Level 2 - Throat cutting in the Ripper series / Beheadings in the Torso murders

                        It's all a matter of being accurate with the data. Level 1 arguments are way too high-level to make any valid comparisons; indeed, the two examples I've given are misleading and/or inaccurate, but that hasn't stopped them being used by pro-Torsoripper advocates.
                        your never going to find two serial killers alike with this much detail.
                        The details are very different, particularly at Level 2, but also at Level 1 if we're honest with ourselves.
                        No one can even answer this very broad one- have there ever been two eviscerating serial killers operating in the same city at the same time before?
                        No one can answer that because the question is invalid. The torso killer/s was/were primarily into dismemberment, not evisceration.
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                          Sure-the torsoripper.
                          But seriously Frank this is another example of the minutia rabbit hole.your never going to find two serial killers alike with this much detail.
                          It actually isn't all that detailed. I could have done with just the last 2 conditions in my earlier post:
                          - the following series was at a distinctly higher frequency than the first
                          - the first series suggesting a planner, the following a doer (little or no planning)
                          The first 2 conditions were just there to define a series.
                          No one can even answer this very broad one-
                          I'm not that interested in finding examples, but would rather like to know what criminal/forensic psychologists would have to say about these 2 particular differences ("planner" vs. "doer"and "slow" vs. "outburst"). If they'd say that it means nothing, then I'd think it likely that TM and the Ripper were one and the same.
                          have there ever been two eviscerating serial killers operating in the same city at the same time before?
                          Not as far as I know.
                          "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                          Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
                            like to know what criminal/forensic psychologists would have to say about these 2 particular differences ("planner" vs. "doer"and "slow" vs. "outburst"). If they'd say that it means nothing, then I'd think it likely that TM and the Ripper were one and the same.
                            Eh?!!! Despite the clear difference in geography, the disparity in the ages of the victims, and the nature of the wounds, etc? You surprise me, Frank
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
                              It actually isn't all that detailed. I could have done with just the last 2 conditions in my earlier post:
                              - the following series was at a distinctly higher frequency than the first
                              - the first series suggesting a planner, the following a doer (little or no planning)
                              The first 2 conditions were just there to define a series.
                              I'm not that interested in finding examples, but would rather like to know what criminal/forensic psychologists would have to say about these 2 particular differences ("planner" vs. "doer"and "slow" vs. "outburst"). If they'd say that it means nothing, then I'd think it likely that TM and the Ripper were one and the same.
                              Not as far as I know.
                              Hi Frank
                              well im no criminal psychologist but I would posit that the ripper was also a planner:

                              He used a ruse to get the victims where he wanted them-posing as a client. The torsoman probably did the same.

                              He surely planned which nights he was going to be actively hunting-had to bring the knife, have money to show, perhaps rag, bag or gloves. wear dark clothes that wouldnt show blood stains.

                              And since he was always one step ahead of the police-perhaps planned when to strike according to beats.

                              The evidence shows Mary probably knew her killer-so he probably planned on targeting her-especially if he knew she had her own place and knew she recently broke up and was single again.

                              re slow vs Outburst. To me if they were the same-the outburst is possible because his chop shop not available and or hes upping the thrill factor.
                              which with this climax he stops for a while and then Mckenzie and pinchon later and then both series end at the same time. The ending of both series at the same time is very much more significant than any changes during the series in my mind.
                              Last edited by Abby Normal; 08-16-2018, 07:39 AM.
                              "Is all that we see or seem
                              but a dream within a dream?"

                              -Edgar Allan Poe


                              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                              -Frederick G. Abberline

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                                It's not a "minutiae rabbit hole", it's merely taking things down one level, which hardly constitutes "minutiae". For example:

                                Level 1 - Same area
                                Level 2 - Opposite ends of a large city

                                Level 1 - Neck wounds
                                Level 2 - Throat cutting in the Ripper series / Beheadings in the Torso murders

                                It's all a matter of being accurate with the data. Level 1 arguments are way too high-level to make any valid comparisons; indeed, the two examples I've given are misleading and/or inaccurate, but that hasn't stopped them being used by pro-Torsoripper advocates.
                                The details are very different, particularly at Level 2, but also at Level 1 if we're honest with ourselves.
                                No one can answer that because the question is invalid. The torso killer/s was/were primarily into dismemberment, not evisceration.
                                Exactly Sam. On this thread people keep posting things like same area. When the two sets of murders occurred at different points of a large city. Also Alice McKenzie's murder is lumped in with The Ripper murders for conveinence when logically it's unlikely she was a Ripper victim.

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