torso maps

[Herlock Sholmes]

Oh ok then guess I'm way behind. What are your thoughts on the recent "Forgotten Ripper" book?

You may have misunderstood my post Rocky. I wasn’t saying that for me it’s game over because I know better than others. What I was trying to say was that some appear to be convinced of one killer. And if that’s the case there’s nothing that I or anyone else could say to change that. Even if I had new evidence....which I don’t.

I haven’t heard of the ‘Forgotten Ripper’ book. But what I have done on this thread is admitted that I’m nowhere near as up to date on ripper matters and current research as other posters on here for reasons that I mentioned.

We have a difference of opinion Rocky. Not because I’m a genius and you’re not or vise versa. I’ve also admitted that I could be wrong. If that position irritates you in some way there’s little that I can say.

By the way, I typed this before I read your second post but it applies to both.

[RockySullivan]

We don't even have the inquest in a lot of these torso cases. There is over a century's worth of research to be done. Victims that could be possibly identified, casefiles could be discovered as unlikely as that and as shown with the recent book more newspaper coverage can be uncovered, such as the revelation within the book that was posted here on the forum a while back by a certain astute poster who saw the article about the man who went the newspaper with a story about a body found right before the whitehall torso, exactly like what happened with Pinchin and John Arnold. So to say "this is not the ripper, case closed" is the definition of close minded.

[RockySullivan]

For some it’s reached ‘game over’ point Rocky.

Oh ok then guess I'm way behind. What are your thoughts on the recent "Forgotten Ripper" book?

[Herlock Sholmes]

more like the 'not even scratched the surface yet' point or in Ripper speak, Pinchin incision level

For some it’s reached ‘game over’ point Rocky.

[Abby Normal]

I’ve just noticed Abby, in my first paragraph, I bet you don’t have ‘outbuildingdings’ in The States do you

no, we dontdont

[RockySullivan]

Do you think we’ve reached the ‘going round in circles’ point yet Abby

more like the 'not even scratched the surface yet' point or in Ripper speak, Pinchin incision level

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve just noticed Abby, in my first paragraph, I bet you don’t have ‘outbuildingdings’ in The States do you

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi HS
no worries-but I do like chatting with you about it- so just a couple of things.




for any variety of reasons. Main one being other family members are around or not. another could be work. or perhaps there was construction going on.

I’d tend to be against the idea of family being around because I’d have thought that he’d have been more likely to have killed somewhere that only he ever had access to. Some kind of outbuildinding or a cellar to his private workshop. Obviously we have no way of knowing for sure but it’s just the impression that I get, especially with the fact that he would have had to have stored a body over a period of time.
-

I do agree with this somewhat. but if hes using his chop shop then there could me more of a tie in with him, something he didn't have to worry about with the ripper victims.

Could be.




I think he may have been going for shock/display things by dumping in the river and on land, but something else is going on here-just cant quite put my finger on it. maybe something like marking his territory, polluting the city, these places have special meaning to him etc.-something like that. Bizarre to us-perfect reason to him.

I suppose that we can all be guilty of getting a fixed idea of something (me as much as anyone else, some would say more.) Perhaps it’s just a matter of effort. So much effort is required to lure someone to a building, then to distribute body parts over a distance and in various locations. And the ripper killings were so....immediate. I see the ripper doing what he did for reasons that we can never truly know; likewise TK, but I can’t see the killer changing so drastically for reasons of convenience.

plus he would have known that his early river dumpings WERE being found-so continued to do it.

But could he be certain that they would all have been attributed to him and not to some dissecting room dumping parts.




I do too, HS. but I see that in the ripper murders too. although I think there could be a hint of sexual arousal in the killing and cutting up of the victims, I think there could be some kind of deranged "dissecting/surgery" curiosity in both also.

I find it easier to attribute the ‘medical’ suggestion to the TK as he could have had these women on a table with time to do what he wanted. Even when he had extended time (with Kelly) he didn’t resort to dismemberment

Do you think we’ve reached the ‘going round in circles’ point yet Abby

[RockySullivan]

It was superficial anyway. I find it very hard to believe that a true evisceration serial killer wouldn't have "followed through" with the knife to get at the innards.

So why the trademark ripper incision then?

[Abby Normal]

I think that we will just have to agree to disagree at the moment on this one. New information might change that though

Hi HS
no worries-but I do like chatting with you about it- so just a couple of things.

As I’ve said before this makes little sense to me. If TK was using some premises as a kind of private dissecting room/mortuary then there’s no way he would have chosen a place that others could have accessed. It’s surely likely that he would have had sole access to that property. If that was so why would there be an on-off availability?

for any variety of reasons. Main one being other family members are around or not. another could be work. or perhaps there was construction going on.

I think that TK made attempts at hiding the identity of his victims by dismemberment which Jack didn’t. If that’s the case then TK must have had a reason to want to hide their identities pointing to a different relationship between TK and his victims and Jack and his victims.

I do agree with this somewhat. but if hes using his chop shop then there could me more of a tie in with him, something he didn't have to worry about with the ripper victims.

But if TK wanted to shock by having body parts found why chuck them into the Thames where they might have got clogged up in weeds and not surface. Or that might have surfaced much later in some bushes on a deserted stretch of the river? He dumped others on land so why not all on land?

I think he may have been going for shock/display things by dumping in the river and on land, but something else is going on here-just cant quite put my finger on it. maybe something like marking his territory, polluting the city, these places have special meaning to him etc.-something like that. Bizarre to us-perfect reason to him.


plus he would have known that his early river dumpings WERE being found-so continued to do it.

I don’t know Abby but I tend to suspect that TK might have had some ‘medical’ reason for the murders.

I do too, HS. but I see that in the ripper murders too. although I think there could be a hint of sexual arousal in the killing and cutting up of the victims, I think there could be some kind of deranged "dissecting/surgery" curiosity in both also.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hello friend


Hello Abby



but im not talking about precedent HS. im talking time frames. they both appear and disappear roughly the same time. with none before and none after (at least for a while).

could be a coincidence. I lean toward not, especially with all the other similarities.

I have no issue with anyone wishing to take that stance. I say that its likely to be a coincidence.


I do kind of agree with you that there are big differences (I wouldnt say vast-lol). Obviously there are, as no one connected them at the time and most still don't.

And this is one of the main reasons why I get a little irritated by the uncalled for levels of confidence by some.

some just think the similarities out weigh the differences, and the differences could be explained by the killers circs and mindset.

Agreed.

part of MO is who (victimolgy) and how the killer gets the victims where he wants them. with the ripper, he posed as a client to get the victims to a secluded spot.

we dont know exactly how torso man did it, but Im pretty sure he used a ruse also-posing as someone who he was not-to get his victims where he wanted them. And since both victims of the series were prostitutes probably as a client also. but in this case back to his chop shop.

Are we sure that all the Torso victims were prostitutes?


Part of MO is also how you dispose of the victim. Ripper left as is and torso dumped. this apparent difference could be explained because the torso victims were killed when he had his chop shop available and the ripper victims were when it was not-and he had to kill on the streets.

As I’ve said before this makes little sense to me. If TK was using some premises as a kind of private dissecting room/mortuary then there’s no way he would have chosen a place that others could have accessed. It’s surely likely that he would have had sole access to that property. If that was so why would there be an on-off availability?


That being said-Both torso man and the ripper made no overt attempts at trying to hide the victims. ripper left them as is and may have even posed-spreading legs etc.-one thing for sure no attempt to hide. Not even dragging them behind something, covering up etc.

I think that TK made attempts at hiding the identity of his victims by dismemberment which Jack didn’t. If that’s the case then TK must have had a reason to want to hide their identities pointing to a different relationship between TK and his victims and Jack and his victims.


torsoman IMHO was also displaying his victims bodies/parts-in the bizarre way in which placed them. IMHO neither made any real concerted effort to hide.

But if TK wanted to shock by having body parts found why chuck them into the Thames where they might have got clogged up in weeds and not surface. Or that might have surfaced much later in some bushes on a deserted stretch of the river? He dumped others on land so why not all on land?


now damage done to bodies (the sig)-to me it is the same-both post mortem mutilation to a female body with knife. they both seem to have a fascination with the female, external and internal, body and what there knife (or cutting instrument-saw in some regards with torsoman) can do to it.in case of torso, dismemberment could also overlap into MO as ease in removing from his chop shop.

Dismemberment could equally be due to the fact that TK feared that he could, in some way, be linked to his victims.

Let me ask you this HS-why is torso man doing all the postmortem mutilation above and beyond what was needed to just dismember? the vertical gashes to the abdoman, removing of flesh, removal of internal organs etc?

I don’t know Abby but I tend to suspect that TK might have had some ‘medical’ reason for the murders.

I think that we will just have to agree to disagree at the moment on this one. New information might change that though

[RockySullivan]

An incision that existed. I don’t seek to explain it. We cannot know what the killer was thinking at the time that it occurred.

Right

Why do similarities in the medical stuff trump the dissimilarities in MO?

15 inch incision along the abdomen of a murder victim in whitechapel? Insignificant

[Abby Normal]

This isn't true Abby see the newspaper article i linked in my last post

Ok thanks rocky-will do!

[RockySullivan]

Obviously there are, as no one connected them at the time and most still don't.

This isn't true Abby see the newspaper article i linked in my last post

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I think that everyone understands it but they choose to dismiss it. I’m being totally honest here when I say that the it simply doesn’t bother me in the slightest when someone makes the statement about precedent. If there is a similarity, and as Gareth has showed it’s more complicated than that, then there are vast differences. To me this glaringly speaks of two killers killing under different circumstances and probably killing for different reasons. Why do similarities in the medical stuff trump the dissimilarities in MO?

Hello friend

I’m being totally honest here when I say that the it simply doesn’t bother me in the slightest when someone makes the statement about precedent.

but im not talking about precedent HS. im talking time frames. they both appear and disappear roughly the same time. with none before and none after (at least for a while).

could be a coincidence. I lean toward not, especially with all the other similarities.

If there is a similarity, and as Gareth has showed it’s more complicated than that, then there are vast differences. To me this glaringly speaks of two killers killing under different circumstances and probably killing for different reasons. Why do similarities in the medical stuff trump the dissimilarities in MO?

I do kind of agree with you that there are big differences (I wouldnt say vast-lol). Obviously there are, as no one connected them at the time and most still don't.

some just think the similarities out weigh the differences, and the differences could be explained by the killers circs and mindset.

the dissimilarities in MO?

part of MO is who (victimolgy) and how the killer gets the victims where he wants them. with the ripper, he posed as a client to get the victims to a secluded spot.

we dont know exactly how torso man did it, but Im pretty sure he used a ruse also-posing as someone who he was not-to get his victims where he wanted them. And since both victims of the series were prostitutes probably as a client also. but in this case back to his chop shop.


Part of MO is also how you dispose of the victim. Ripper left as is and torso dumped. this apparent difference could be explained because the torso victims were killed when he had his chop shop available and the ripper victims were when it was not-and he had to kill on the streets.


That being said-Both torso man and the ripper made no overt attempts at trying to hide the victims. ripper left them as is and may have even posed-spreading legs etc.-one thing for sure no attempt to hide. Not even dragging them behind something, covering up etc.


torsoman IMHO was also displaying his victims bodies/parts-in the bizarre way in which placed them. IMHO neither made any real concerted effort to hide.


now damage done to bodies (the sig)-to me it is the same-both post mortem mutilation to a female body with knife. they both seem to have a fascination with the female, external and internal, body and what there knife (or cutting instrument-saw in some regards with torsoman) can do to it.

in case of torso, dismemberment could also overlap into MO as ease in removing from his chop shop.


Let me ask you this HS-why is torso man doing all the postmortem mutilation above and beyond what was needed to just dismember? the vertical gashes to the abdoman, removing of flesh, removal of internal organs etc?