JtR failed amputation. Torso killer was successful.

[Sam Flynn]

The flaps, were they trown on the floor? No, they were neatly placed on the bedside table!

So he plopped some flaps of flesh on top of one another on the small table. So what? It's not as if they were lovingly laid out like freshly-pressed laundry.

Besides, I'm talking about the manner of the wounds, and the overall messy nature of the mutilations, which is well-attested by the photographs.

Not a word about any damage to the organs

Not a word about the state of the organs one way or another. But we do know that there were hacks in the arms, the face slashed about like a well-used ice rink, that one thigh was almost totally defleshed and the other only partially so, that the stomach was split and the lobe of one lung torn away.

[Abby Normal]

I already address this point. Fisherman dismissed it. Didn't even address it.

In forensic pathology, you can be absolutely sure you have a gauntlet of examination results to run which do the exact opposite of what you claim they can't determine.

By examination of injuries to a body, it is possible to determine if an attempt has been made to do something and a failure of the attempt. Heck, we can even do this with suicides, let alone homicides.

As per my OP (stay on topic), JtR demonstrates amputation attempt failures but if you want to argue against that, then you still have attempted failures of other injuries inflicted. Even these question his experience... experience which the torso murderer(s) must have had because they were able to carry out dissections, amputations and dismemberments without these problems evident in the medical examinations.

The idea sells itself.

JtR would not waste time on mistakes and efforts that failed especially under the time constraint conditions at Mitre Sq., for example.

The Torsoman, if JtR, has amnesia for the C5.

Furthermore, most of the C5 series shows attempts to mutilate.

Experienced persons (Torsoman) would not have attempted what bone will stop.

Even Philip's describes attempts. - The muscular structures appeared as though an attempt had made to separate the bones of the neck.

sorry batman you lost me. I cant even decipher most of what you've written here.

bottom line is they weren't failed amputations.


im not even sure where or how you come up with this stuff

both torsoman and the ripper knew what the hell they where doing with the knife and to the victims bodies. they both show skill with what they actually achieved.

[Fisherman]

I don't read every post, Fish.
There's no record to the contrary, either. Bond doesn't describe the nature of the excisions, although he does tell us that the stomach was split and part of a lung torn away.

As to "messy and chaotic", just look at the photos.

I have. Many times. And every time I do so, I can see what Bond saw, or part of it:

"The viscera were found in various parts viz: the uterus and kidneys with one breast under the head, the other breast by the right foot, the liver between the feet, the intestines by the right side and the spleen by the left side of the body. The flaps removed from the abdomen and thighs were on a table."

The flaps, were they trown on the floor? No, they were neatly placed on the bedside table!

Not a word about any damage to the organs. The kidneys and the uterus neatly placed under her head. The liver between her feet, the spleen by the left side of the body. Not parts of them. The whole organs.

Saying that the photos give away mess and chaos is a tad superfluous. Any evisceration murder pictures would do that. Imagine what the torso mans excursions into the human body will have looked like.

But in how many mutilation murders involving excisions of organs do we find the excised innards neatly taken out and placed like this? How far AWAY from a messy and chaotic scene can a murder of this type be taken? As far as Kelly, Iīd say. The parts were practically lined up for Bonds to list them. And there goes your mess and chaos.

[Sam Flynn]

I asked you this before, but you did not answer, Gareth:

I don't read every post, Fish.

There is no sign of any of the inner organs excised from Kelly having any damage at all

There's no record to the contrary, either. Bond doesn't describe the nature of the excisions, although he does tell us that the stomach was split and part of a lung torn away.

As to "messy and chaotic", just look at the photos.

[Batman]

Batman
saying that they were "failed amputations" is a misnomer as well as illogical.


to say someone failed you first have to know they were attempting something. we have no idea if the ripper was attempting it, on the contrary, considering the wounds on the victims and the time and freedom he had with Kelly it seems obvious he was attempting(and succeeded) evisceration and organ/parts removal. and amputation is a term used for living people. stick with dismemberment.

I already address this point. Fisherman dismissed it. Didn't even address it.

In forensic pathology, you can be absolutely sure you have a gauntlet of examination results to run which do the exact opposite of what you claim they can't determine.

By examination of injuries to a body, it is possible to determine if an attempt has been made to do something and a failure of the attempt. Heck, we can even do this with suicides, let alone homicides.

As per my OP (stay on topic), JtR demonstrates amputation attempt failures but if you want to argue against that, then you still have attempted failures of other injuries inflicted. Even these question his experience... experience which the torso murderer(s) must have had because they were able to carry out dissections, amputations and dismemberments without these problems evident in the medical examinations.

The idea sells itself.

JtR would not waste time on mistakes and efforts that failed especially under the time constraint conditions at Mitre Sq., for example.

The Torsoman, if JtR, has amnesia for the C5.

Furthermore, most of the C5 series shows attempts to mutilate.

Experienced persons (Torsoman) would not have attempted what bone will stop.

Even Philip's describes attempts. - The muscular structures appeared as though an attempt had made to separate the bones of the neck.

[Batman]

Quite frankly so much of that is piffle.

Necks were severely cut and one attempt at decapitation is likely.

I said this.

Nobody is seriously debating with you regarding Kelly.

Yes they are.

Chapman and Eddowes show not just training but surgical expertise.

According to the inexperienced to deal with these homicides (nobody was) Dr. Philips. It was only after a series that Dr. Bond did the meta-analysis and conclusively said, not even the experience of a butcher.

Bond had also seen Torsoman's work. No connection.

This is easily put to rest by asking one question -> What did Dr. Philips say about medical experience with Kelly with Bond present?

Not many think JtR and the Torso murderer were the same person.

Reckon this is going to go around in circles.

This thread is what it is.

[Fisherman]

times they are a changing. finally

130 years overdue! Thatīs unforgiveable, to be frank.

[Abby Normal]

Not many think JtR and the Torso murderer were the same person.

times they are a changing. finally

[Abby Normal]

Batman
saying that they were "failed amputations" is a misnomer as well as illogical.


to say someone failed you first have to know they were attempting something. we have no idea if the ripper was attempting it, on the contrary, considering the wounds on the victims and the time and freedom he had with Kelly it seems obvious he was attempting(and succeeded) evisceration and organ/parts removal. and amputation is a term used for living people. stick with dismemberment.

[DJA]

Seems this could be a very big strike against JtR being the Torso killer(s).

Kelly's amputated breasts by circular incisions demonstrate that JtR tried to amputate body parts. Her right arm was slightly abducted. Also, there are knife knotches found more than once on their vertebrates. Many of JtR's victim's heads are almost severed from their body.

Even if we debate if he was amputating, there is evidence he tried to do something, stopped and didn't follow through, especially with Kelly.

It seems these points jeopardize both attempts to give JtR some medical training and to associate him with the Torso murderer, who seems to have no problem with severing body parts and amputating them. For JtR, this is a problem and time limits can't be a factor, given we know with Kelly, he had lots of uninterrupted time to carry out his fantasies to the full.

Quite frankly so much of that is piffle.

Necks were severely cut and one attempt at decapitation is likely.

Nobody is seriously debating with you regarding Kelly.

Chapman and Eddowes show not just training but surgical expertise.

Not many think JtR and the Torso murderer were the same person.

Reckon this is going to go around in circles.

[Fisherman]

I agree. Whilst one might argue that time constraints might have affected the manifestation of any skill/experience in most of the murders (not that I subscribe to that view), the same can't be said of Kelly where, even with more privacy and time at his disposal, the killer was just as messy and chaotic in his approach as he'd been with Nichols et seq.

I asked you this before, but you did not answer, Gareth:

There is no sign of any of the inner organs excised from Kelly having any damage at all. So how do we make a "messy and chaotic" killer dovetail with that? Would a "messy and chaotic" killer not just hack and slash - the way you want us to believe he did - and leave the organs like mincemeat inside his victim?
So why is it, then, that we are looking at a woman who has had her innards neatly plucked out and placed beside her?

Was it his moment of composure and exactitude, whereas the rest was "messy and chaotic"?

[Batman]

That would be the guy that reckons a carman did it.
Accept that as a blessing.

Sorta.

Firstly I believe Sutton had a 2 km or so walk home along "Hanbury Street" to Finsbury Square and probably carried a surgical knife for protection.

After the blackmail attempt by Nichols,he upgraded his weapon of choice.

That appears to be escalation.
Fair bet that Chapman was a TB patient of his which would account for the decapitation attempt.

Superfluous,however a change of "venue" was prolly agreed to by Eddowes,Stride and BS man for a payoff.
Stride's genetic disease was of little interest to Sutton,however Eddowes was a star patient.
Kelly was the ringleader.

Okay, so this is your suspect and your claim. Fine. However, it doesn't address the OP.

The OP, BTW, indicates no medical knowledge for JtR at all.

[DJA]

Not only did several people understand precisely what I was saying, but one of them was so taken aback by it as to call it all brainless and claims to refuse to want to speak to me about the topic again.

It is clear to everyone else I am afraid.

Anyway since you have chimed in, what say you to the OP?

Seems you are indicating you agree with it?

That would be the guy that reckons a carman did it.
Accept that as a blessing.

Sorta.

Firstly I believe Sutton had a 2 km or so walk home along "Hanbury Street" to Finsbury Square and probably carried a surgical knife for protection.

After the blackmail attempt by Nichols,he upgraded his weapon of choice.

That appears to be escalation.
Fair bet that Chapman was a TB patient of his which would account for the decapitation attempt.

Superfluous,however a change of "venue" was prolly agreed to by Eddowes,Stride and BS man for a payoff.
Stride's genetic disease was of little interest to Sutton,however Eddowes was a star patient.
Kelly was the ringleader.

[DJA]

Nope,I speak Strine

[Sam Flynn]

Understandable. Sam is Welsh.

Gan fy mod yn sgrifennu yn yr iaith Saesneg, ni ddylsai'r ffaith yma wneud unrhyw gwahaniaeth