JtR failed amputation. Torso killer was successful.

[Sam Flynn]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2689568/

Nose amputation throughout history in that medical article.

The deliberate, surgical removal of a nose or an ear might be classified as amputation - especially in articles translated from the Italian (L’amputazione del naso nella storia) - but we normally think of amputation as involving the removal of limbs, and it's defined as such in many dictionaries.

Lopping off the nose, or part thereof, as in the cases of Eddowes or Kelly, hardly constitutes amputation in the usual sense of the word. We might say that the torso victims had their heads amputated, but more usually we'd describe that as "decapitation".

To classify earlobe/nose-lopping or breast removal in the same category as cutting off an entire arm or leg is a big stretch, and not very helpful.

[DJA]

In forensic pathology, you can be absolutely sure you have a gauntlet of examination results to run which do the exact opposite of what you claim they can't determine in your caps typing.

By examination of injuries to a body, it is possible to determine if an attempt has been made to do something and a failure of the attempt. Heck, we can even do this with suicides, let alone homicides.

As per my OP (stay on topic), JtR demonstrates amputation attempt failures but if you want to argue against that, then you still have attempted failures of other injuries inflicted. Even these question his experience... experience which the torso murderer(s) must have had because they were able to carry out dissections, amputations and dismemberments without these problems evident in the medical examinations.

Viola. The idea sells itself.

JtR would not waste time on mistakes and efforts that failed especially under the time constraint conditions at Mitre Sq., for example.

The Torsoman, if JtR, has amnesia for the C5.

Wow. Forensic pathology is an minimum of 11 years study and exams here in Oz.

You have barely scratched the surface there.

[Fisherman]

In forensic pathology, you can be absolutely sure you have a gauntlet of examination results to run which do the exact opposite of what you claim they can't determine in your caps typing.

By examination of injuries to a body, it is possible to determine if an attempt has been made to do something and a failure of the attempt. Heck, we can even do this with suicides, let alone homicides.

As per my OP (stay on topic), JtR demonstrates amputation attempt failures but if you want to argue against that, then you still have attempted failures of other injuries inflicted. Even these question his experience... experience which the torso murderer(s) must have had because they were able to carry out dissections, amputations and dismemberments without these problems evident in the medical examinations.

Viola. The idea sells itself.

JtR would not waste time on mistakes and efforts that failed especially under the time constraint conditions at Mitre Sq., for example.

The Torsoman, if JtR, has amnesia for the C5.

Itīs voilá, not viola.

But then again, none of your posts are voilā.

When a discussion becomes brainless, I leave it. It allows my opponents to say that I am leaving because I can no longer defend my stance.

In this case, I feel secure in saying that nobody but possibly you will draw that conclusion.

Thatīs not saying that I wonīt debate the topic fortwith. It interests me, and I will, just not with you.

[Batman]

No, it cannot. It can only confirm whether or not a measure has been carried out in accordance with how it would/could be carried out ONCE WE KNOW THAT THIS WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE ONE CARRYYING OUT THE MEASURE.

In forensic pathology, you can be absolutely sure you have a gauntlet of examination results to run which do the exact opposite of what you claim they can't determine in your caps typing.

By examination of injuries to a body, it is possible to determine if an attempt has been made to do something and a failure of the attempt. Heck, we can even do this with suicides, let alone homicides.

As per my OP (stay on topic), JtR demonstrates amputation attempt failures but if you want to argue against that, then you still have attempted failures of other injuries inflicted. Even these question his experience... experience which the torso murderer(s) must have had because they were able to carry out dissections, amputations and dismemberments without these problems evident in the medical examinations.

Viola. The idea sells itself.

JtR would not waste time on mistakes and efforts that failed especially under the time constraint conditions at Mitre Sq., for example.

The Torsoman, if JtR, has amnesia for the C5.

[DJA]

Don't forget that the v-shaped marks on Eddowes's face may have been the result of an attempt to cut off the nose. Which would be another failure.

Henry ..... oops,Jack the Ripper has marked Eddowes' Maxillary sinuses.

He also laid a piece of intestine next to her body.

A kidney was taken.

Of course the nose was also cut.

That is actually significant in terms of her rheumatic fever and Gull-Sutton Disease.

Strep pyogenes enters the nose,infects the sinuses,makes their home in the intestines, infects the heart and eventually,the kidneys.

[Fisherman]

Yes, we can. A medical examination can know this.

No, it cannot. It can only confirm whether or not a measure has been carried out in accordance with how it would/could be carried out ONCE WE KNOW THAT THIS WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE ONE CARRYING OUT THE MEASURE.

If I intend to cut your pinkie off but end up cutting your index finger off, all a medical examination can establish is that you have lost your index finger and that it is clear that the one who took it away knew how to do it or got lucky.

All we know in such a case is exactly the same we know when looking at your posting: there is something very much amiss.

[Batman]

The point being that we cannot possibly KNOW whether he got it wrong.

Yes, we can. A medical examination can know this.

[Fisherman]

Where is the evidence the torso killer made mistakes?

Where is the evidence the torso killer attempted something and failed?

The torso killer was well capable of amputations and also well capable of removing a skull from a head leaving the face and hair attached like a mask.

An utmost useless post, Iīm afraid. Maybe he made a mistake when removing the head of Jackson, "Ooops, aimed for the foot and got the head!"

The point being that we cannot possibly KNOW whether he got it wrong. The logical thing to do is to accept that he could have. Equally logical, we may need to weigh in how the two series were performed under VERY different circumstances in terms of time, light and equipment.

That is why you have no point at all here. Keep it up and you will debate alone - I have little time for this kind of stuff.

[Batman]

The removal of organs (strictly, evisceration) or severing of an ear/nose aren't amputation as such. The removal of a limb is, and none of the Ripper victims had their limbs removed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2689568/

Nose amputation throughout history in that medical article.

Breast amputation was done to Kelly for example. The most obvious successful amputation he did. Not surprising since there were no bones to get in the way like many of his other amputation and mutilation attempts.

[Fisherman]

The removal of organs (strictly, evisceration) or severing of an ear/nose aren't amputation as such. The removal of a limb is, and none of the Ripper victims had their limbs removed.

Exactamundo, Gareth. Letīs see if our winged friend grasps it.

[Batman]

The nose was gone, so he did not fail in that context. The initial cut seems to have hit bone structure, and so he moved the blade a bit further down before he cut a second time.

Are you saying that the torso killer would never have been able to make that kind of a mistake? Or am I misreading you?

Where is the evidence the torso killer made mistakes?

Where is the evidence the torso killer attempted something and failed?

The torso killer was well capable of amputations and also well capable of removing a skull from a head leaving the face and hair attached like a mask.

[Sam Flynn]

JtR amputated.

The removal of organs (strictly, evisceration) or severing of an ear/nose aren't amputation as such. The removal of a limb is, and none of the Ripper victims had their limbs removed.

[Fisherman]

Batman: JtR amputated. A fact. Eddowes has amputations. Kelly has amputations. This isn't guesswork. He was doing it.

What I am referring to is the amputation of limbs and head, the way these things occur in dismemberment cases, nothing else. I know what the Ripper did.


Plus Dr. Bond saw the Whitehall Torso at the scene of the crime and carried out the medical examination. The same Dr. Bond saw the medical examination of Mary Jane Kelly and did a meta-review of all the murders. He didn't attribute the Torso to the same hand.

Most contemporary medicos didnīt. Then again, back then they thought ALL dismemberment murders were practical affairs. Note, however, how Phillips saw great likenesses inbetween how the torso killer and the Ripper did their cutting.
All of these matters must be put into historical perspective before we can evaluate them properly.

Chapter 18 of Philip Sugden's The Complete History of Jack the Ripper discusses the failed decapitations of Chapman and Kelly. Even Nick Warren, an expert in the field, notes that the attempt indicates anatomical knowledge, not that it didn't. So even some surgeons who think JtR had anatomical knowledge, put even the attempt down to anatomical knowledge.

They don't deny the attempt at all.

Do you hear anybody denying the possibility, Batman? If so, you need to listen harder:

These Ripper murders MAY have involved failed decapitations and they MAY not have.

That is not denying, is it? It seems to me that the only denial around here is on your uninformed behalf, trying to factify your guesswork.

Will it work out for you? Hereīs my answer:

[Fisherman]

He also took her baby out.

That does not matter, Gareth. It still remains that we know that the victims had their uteri taken out and that we donīt know why this happened. It was a conscious decision on the killers behalf in each case, thatīs all we can say.

As I said before, if the killer had a hang-up on maternity or something like that, a uterus containing a foetus can have represented an ultimate prize for the combined killer, and what he would do with that foetus would be something unrelated to how he extracted uteri in the first place.

It seems you absolutely need to believe that the uteri were taken out for different reasons and by different men, but when conducting an investigation the starting point must be based on facts only. Consequently, we must start from a point of accepting that there is an overwhelming likelihood of a common killer, and then we can put alternative theories to the test afterwards. But it is only when we can add factual evidence that points away from a common killer that such an exercise can alter the picture.

We should also keep in mind that it is not only about the uteri. When investigating these cases, the police would quickly arrive at the fact that there is also a matter of taking away the abdominal walls in sections, and that would seal the deal for any policeman worth his salt. It is top quality litmus paper, if ever there was such a thing.

To reason that there is a small possibility that these matters are simply coincidental is not 100 per cent off the charts, although closely so. But to work from such an assumption as if it was the more likely thing is to refuse to accept the facts and to invent an alternative truth, ā la Donald Trump.

[Batman]

Saying if JtR could amputate, he would amputate, is nothing but a guess on your behalf, and guessing never produced any factual ground to work from.

So in that context, if we have the same killer, then why would JtR amputate at all? What possible need would there be for it?

Ergo, what you are trying to lead on with your guesswork, is that you would somehow have been magically informed that the Ripper nourished a wish to amputate, but that he was not able to do so. From this pure guesswork of yours, you then deduct that the two men cannot possibly have been one and the same.

It is an intellectual debacle.

JtR amputated. A fact. Eddowes has amputations. Kelly has amputations. This isn't guesswork. He was doing it.

The lobe and auricle of Eddowes right ear were cut obliquely through. Either he messed up cutting her neck and took off a piece of her ear with it, or he doesn't know how to remove an ear.

As pointed out it appears he has tried to amputate the nose several ways and failed before finally figuring out how to get it off.

Plus Dr. Bond saw the Whitehall Torso at the scene of the crime and carried out the medical examination. The same Dr. Bond saw the medical examination of Mary Jane Kelly and did a meta-review of all the murders. He didn't attribute the Torso to the same hand.

Chapter 18 of Philip Sugden's The Complete History of Jack the Ripper discusses the failed decapitations of Chapman and Kelly. Even Nick Warren, an expert in the field, notes that the attempt indicates anatomical knowledge, not that it didn't. So even some surgeons who think JtR had anatomical knowledge, put even the attempt down to anatomical knowledge.

They don't deny the attempt at all.