JtR failed amputation. Torso killer was successful.

[Abby Normal]

Not many think JtR and the Torso murderer were the same person.

times they are a changing. finally

[Fisherman]

times they are a changing. finally

130 years overdue! Thatīs unforgiveable, to be frank.

[Batman]

Quite frankly so much of that is piffle.

Necks were severely cut and one attempt at decapitation is likely.

I said this.

Nobody is seriously debating with you regarding Kelly.

Yes they are.

Chapman and Eddowes show not just training but surgical expertise.

According to the inexperienced to deal with these homicides (nobody was) Dr. Philips. It was only after a series that Dr. Bond did the meta-analysis and conclusively said, not even the experience of a butcher.

Bond had also seen Torsoman's work. No connection.

This is easily put to rest by asking one question -> What did Dr. Philips say about medical experience with Kelly with Bond present?

Not many think JtR and the Torso murderer were the same person.

Reckon this is going to go around in circles.

This thread is what it is.

[Batman]

Batman
saying that they were "failed amputations" is a misnomer as well as illogical.


to say someone failed you first have to know they were attempting something. we have no idea if the ripper was attempting it, on the contrary, considering the wounds on the victims and the time and freedom he had with Kelly it seems obvious he was attempting(and succeeded) evisceration and organ/parts removal. and amputation is a term used for living people. stick with dismemberment.

I already address this point. Fisherman dismissed it. Didn't even address it.

In forensic pathology, you can be absolutely sure you have a gauntlet of examination results to run which do the exact opposite of what you claim they can't determine.

By examination of injuries to a body, it is possible to determine if an attempt has been made to do something and a failure of the attempt. Heck, we can even do this with suicides, let alone homicides.

As per my OP (stay on topic), JtR demonstrates amputation attempt failures but if you want to argue against that, then you still have attempted failures of other injuries inflicted. Even these question his experience... experience which the torso murderer(s) must have had because they were able to carry out dissections, amputations and dismemberments without these problems evident in the medical examinations.

The idea sells itself.

JtR would not waste time on mistakes and efforts that failed especially under the time constraint conditions at Mitre Sq., for example.

The Torsoman, if JtR, has amnesia for the C5.

Furthermore, most of the C5 series shows attempts to mutilate.

Experienced persons (Torsoman) would not have attempted what bone will stop.

Even Philip's describes attempts. - The muscular structures appeared as though an attempt had made to separate the bones of the neck.

[Sam Flynn]

I asked you this before, but you did not answer, Gareth:

I don't read every post, Fish.

There is no sign of any of the inner organs excised from Kelly having any damage at all

There's no record to the contrary, either. Bond doesn't describe the nature of the excisions, although he does tell us that the stomach was split and part of a lung torn away.

As to "messy and chaotic", just look at the photos.

[Fisherman]

I don't read every post, Fish.
There's no record to the contrary, either. Bond doesn't describe the nature of the excisions, although he does tell us that the stomach was split and part of a lung torn away.

As to "messy and chaotic", just look at the photos.

I have. Many times. And every time I do so, I can see what Bond saw, or part of it:

"The viscera were found in various parts viz: the uterus and kidneys with one breast under the head, the other breast by the right foot, the liver between the feet, the intestines by the right side and the spleen by the left side of the body. The flaps removed from the abdomen and thighs were on a table."

The flaps, were they trown on the floor? No, they were neatly placed on the bedside table!

Not a word about any damage to the organs. The kidneys and the uterus neatly placed under her head. The liver between her feet, the spleen by the left side of the body. Not parts of them. The whole organs.

Saying that the photos give away mess and chaos is a tad superfluous. Any evisceration murder pictures would do that. Imagine what the torso mans excursions into the human body will have looked like.

But in how many mutilation murders involving excisions of organs do we find the excised innards neatly taken out and placed like this? How far AWAY from a messy and chaotic scene can a murder of this type be taken? As far as Kelly, Iīd say. The parts were practically lined up for Bonds to list them. And there goes your mess and chaos.

[Abby Normal]

I already address this point. Fisherman dismissed it. Didn't even address it.

In forensic pathology, you can be absolutely sure you have a gauntlet of examination results to run which do the exact opposite of what you claim they can't determine.

By examination of injuries to a body, it is possible to determine if an attempt has been made to do something and a failure of the attempt. Heck, we can even do this with suicides, let alone homicides.

As per my OP (stay on topic), JtR demonstrates amputation attempt failures but if you want to argue against that, then you still have attempted failures of other injuries inflicted. Even these question his experience... experience which the torso murderer(s) must have had because they were able to carry out dissections, amputations and dismemberments without these problems evident in the medical examinations.

The idea sells itself.

JtR would not waste time on mistakes and efforts that failed especially under the time constraint conditions at Mitre Sq., for example.

The Torsoman, if JtR, has amnesia for the C5.

Furthermore, most of the C5 series shows attempts to mutilate.

Experienced persons (Torsoman) would not have attempted what bone will stop.

Even Philip's describes attempts. - The muscular structures appeared as though an attempt had made to separate the bones of the neck.

sorry batman you lost me. I cant even decipher most of what you've written here.

bottom line is they weren't failed amputations.


im not even sure where or how you come up with this stuff

both torsoman and the ripper knew what the hell they where doing with the knife and to the victims bodies. they both show skill with what they actually achieved.

[Sam Flynn]

The flaps, were they trown on the floor? No, they were neatly placed on the bedside table!

So he plopped some flaps of flesh on top of one another on the small table. So what? It's not as if they were lovingly laid out like freshly-pressed laundry.

Besides, I'm talking about the manner of the wounds, and the overall messy nature of the mutilations, which is well-attested by the photographs.

Not a word about any damage to the organs

Not a word about the state of the organs one way or another. But we do know that there were hacks in the arms, the face slashed about like a well-used ice rink, that one thigh was almost totally defleshed and the other only partially so, that the stomach was split and the lobe of one lung torn away.

[Batman]

sorry batman you lost me. I cant even decipher most of what you've written here.

Others have understood it and some have rejected addressing it. So you have just followed in some of the others footsteps by trying to dismiss it. Can't you think for yourself?

both torsoman and the ripper knew what the hell they where doing with the knife and to the victims bodies. they both show skill with what they actually achieved.

That's a modern claim. It rejects Dr. Bond.

It can't explain why Dr. Philips makes no mention of a medical influence with Kelly.

Claiming they aren't related because you want them to be related, isn't an argument.

[Abby Normal]

Others have understood it and some have rejected addressing it. So you have just followed in some of the others footsteps by trying to dismiss it. Can't you think for yourself?



That's a modern claim. It rejects Dr. Bond.

It can't explain why Dr. Philips makes no mention of a medical influence with Kelly.

Claiming they aren't related because you want them to be related, isn't an argument.

batman
You write alot of interesting stuff and i like reading your posts but you go to far alot with your pseudo scientific nonsense.

"failed amputations" "attempts to mutilate"-bahhh


so the bone of her neck was cut. woop de do. looking at all the other deep gashes its obvious that the ripper was just cutting hard and deep and not a "failed amputation" . lol. give me a break.


if ripper man and torso man were the same man it should blatently obvious why the ripper murders didnt involve dismemberment. but since you appear to not get it Ill spell it out to you-its not what he wanted to do in those circumstances and you blooody hell cant as well stuff a head or leg in your pocket can you?

Can't you think for yourself?

so personal attacks now Batman? your losing it pal.

two words "chip strap" . later

[Batman]

batman
You write alot of interesting stuff and i like reading your posts but you go to far alot with your pseudo scientific nonsense.

"failed amputations" "attempts to mutilate"-bahhh

I am able to find a peer-reviewed journal article that include mention of JtR's failure in these areas because even since the start of this thread I have discovered no less than 4 professionals, who have had this position reviewed by peers and published in academic journals.

Which is why I know positions to the opposite don't have the same academic backing.

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn: So he plopped some flaps of flesh on top of one another on the small table. So what? It's not as if they were lovingly laid out like freshly-pressed laundry.

The point is that they and the organs were not thrown onto the floor or something like that - which should be expected by a "messy and chaotic" killer. Instead they were placed on the table and on the bed. Placed as in consciously put there.
No mess - neatness.
No chaos - order.


Besides, I'm talking about the manner of the wounds, and the overall messy nature of the mutilations, which is well-attested by the photographs.

Yes, the body was very severely cut. But the organs were taken out and neatly placed on the table, under her head and beside her body on the bed. That is the polar opposite of mess and chaos.
I also happen to believe that much of the cutting in the body was structured and planned to reach a defined goal on the killers behalf. Not least does the exhibited femur bone bear witness to this, as does the face if I am not very much mistaken. Some damage may be defensive wounds, and we do not have the perfectly angled cuts that Galloway noted in the Rainham case. But neither do we have the same conditions at the murder site.

Not a word about the state of the organs one way or another.

If the liver had been, say, halved, then I believe we would know that. The same goes for the other innards - if they were hacked and cut all over, I see no reason for Bond not to mention that.

But we do know that there were hacks in the arms, the face slashed about like a well-used ice rink, that one thigh was almost totally defleshed and the other only partially so, that the stomach was split and the lobe of one lung torn away.[/QUOTE]

My guesses:
The hacked arms could perhaps have been defensive wounds to a degree, but they could equally be a sort of parallel to the right thigh snce the wounds seem to have travelled all the way into the bone.
The face was probably shaped by the Ripper into what he wanted it to look like, an achievement on itīs own.
The thigh and the femur were probably exhibited with intent.
The split stomach may or may not have been something the killer consciously shaped; it is hard to say with no further detail added.
The lung would have been torn out to give way for the heart extraction. There is the possibility that the cuts through the intercoastals facilitated for him to see what he did, but it may also be this had another purpose, aligning quite well with the rest.

All in all, it seems to me that there was a whole lot of purpose behind what happened.

What I donīt see is total mayhem, mess and chaos. I see structure and a very thorough effort guided to produce a result that the killer had decided on beforehand.

[Michael W Richards]

By the time Mary Kelly is murdered we have torso murders that have already taken place. Many seem to feel that in room 13 the killer known as "Jack" finally has the time to see his desires through.

So, why are none of Marys limbs amputated? Or her head? Obviously if this is the man who made torsos that should have been second nature to him. And with privacy, (like the Torso man evidently already had before this), why, with all this time suddenly, does he fail to amputate? Answer...its not the same guy who made torsos.

If this was the man known as Jack, how can we explain the myriad of useless cutting he did in room 13? In Chapmans case it was suggested all the cutting was intended to access an obtain what he eventually took. So, why does he leave that same organ under her head and instead spending precious time removing flesh from thighs? Why didnt he cut her throat before she was able to resist or defend herself...as it appears in all the previous C5 cases? And why does he now seek out women he apparently knows, at home in bed instead of the many, many strangers who were outdoors alone at the time, something that is perhaps critical to his MO...stranger, actively working, out alone, dark corners to work in..again, the simple answer is its not the same guy.

The way square pegs are continually forced into round holes by seemingly intelligent people in this study is remarkable.

Instead of chasing the Incredible Morphing Ripper how about just following the evidence as it is?

Torso man was someone else than Marys killer, as was the Phantom Menace.

You can easily explaining multiple killers in what may have been the most dangerous area of Great Britain at the time, and since most probably they will have killed based on differing motivations, its reasonable to see differing goals, skills and knowledge.

The fact so many were attacked with knives merely speaks to the ease of access of such a weapon.

[Fisherman]

By the time Mary Kelly is murdered we have torso murders that have already taken place. Many seem to feel that in room 13 the killer known as "Jack" finally has the time to see his desires through.

So, why are none of Marys limbs amputated? Or her head? Obviously if this is the man who made torsos that should have been second nature to him. And with privacy, (like the Torso man evidently already had before this), why, with all this time suddenly, does he fail to amputate? Answer...its not the same guy who made torsos.

If this was the man known as Jack, how can we explain the myriad of useless cutting he did in room 13? In Chapmans case it was suggested all the cutting was intended to access an obtain what he eventually took. So, why does he leave that same organ under her head and instead spending precious time removing flesh from thighs? Why didnt he cut her throat before she was able to resist or defend herself...as it appears in all the previous C5 cases? And why does he now seek out women he apparently knows, at home in bed instead of the many, many strangers who were outdoors alone at the time, something that is perhaps critical to his MO...stranger, actively working, out alone, dark corners to work in..again, the simple answer is its not the same guy.

The way square pegs are continually forced into round holes by seemingly intelligent people in this study is remarkable.

Instead of chasing the Incredible Morphing Ripper how about just following the evidence as it is?

Torso man was someone else than Marys killer, as was the Phantom Menace.

You can easily explaining multiple killers in what may have been the most dangerous area of Great Britain at the time, and since most probably they will have killed based on differing motivations, its reasonable to see differing goals, skills and knowledge.

The fact so many were attacked with knives merely speaks to the ease of access of such a weapon.

Michael, it has innumerable times been pointed out that the Ripper had no need to dismember. Discarding the bodies so as not to give away his abode was not something he needed to do. Surely you have seen this pointed out?

You claim that dismemberment must have been second nature to the torso killer. How do you know that? What in the dismemberment tells you the it was what he came for? Why could his primary aim not have been something else?

You say that you can easily explain multiple killers by how the area was dangerous. Will you have us believe that no other area anywhere else has ever been as dangerous - or worse? If you admit that there have been many as bad and worse venues throughout history, how do you "easily explain" the fact that the world has no record of two simultaneous eviscerators in the same area?

Maybe it is not all that easy after all? And that is BEFORE you are asked to explain how two separate killers both come up with the idea to take out uteri and hearts and to carve the abdominal wall away in sections. Once that surfaces, you are well and truly _______ (fill in the term yourself).

[Abby Normal]

I am able to find a peer-reviewed journal article that include mention of JtR's failure in these areas because even since the start of this thread I have discovered no less than 4 professionals, who have had this position reviewed by peers and published in academic journals.

Which is why I know positions to the opposite don't have the same academic backing.

academic backing, academic shbacking. use your common sense. what? cant think for yourself?