JtR failed amputation. Torso killer was successful.

[Sam Flynn]

Our learned Torsoman as JtR has blanked out on what he should know. There is way too much feeling around and attempting this and that to show he isn't working from past recollections as Torsoman. It is like that knowledge has been erased.

I agree. Whilst one might argue that time constraints might have affected the manifestation of any skill/experience in most of the murders (not that I subscribe to that view), the same can't be said of Kelly where, even with more privacy and time at his disposal, the killer was just as messy and chaotic in his approach as he'd been with Nichols et seq.

[DJA]

There are many types of amputations. For example, partial amputations. As we have said, we don't need to use the term amputation to make the general point of attempts that failed with JtR's inflicted injuries.

Whatever way one tries to look at this, you have the attempted removal of some body parts with indications of failure to do, usually in the case of JtR, because the knife has struck bone rather than between the joints.

Even then a surgeon understands that if they meet bone and wish to get through bone, to use another instrument and method altogether. Yet JtR made the attempt in several ways with several body parts, sometimes with success and other times without.

We can rule out time factors because of Kelly, where he was uninterrupted. Eddowes was a time constraint and yet it is apparent some of that time has been spent making mistakes.

In this case, the coincidences of the knife on bone strikes across multiple victims, often in the neck area, as a result of overkill, shows he went further than he needed to go and that further was brought to a halt by bone barriers. Something Torsoman would have been aware of.

Not to mention how many cuts are jagged from neck to groin, again showing he really doesn't clearly have that much experience except if we consider he only learned as he went along with the C5.

Our learned Torsoman as JtR has blanked out on what he should know. There is way too much feeling around and attempting this and that to show he isn't working from past recollections as Torsoman. It is like that knowledge has been erased.

You really have no idea.

Honestly.

Reckon you are talking about two different people.

[Batman]

You really have no idea.

Honestly.

Reckon you are talking about two different people.

I have been unable to follow either of your posts. Can you please explain exactly what you mean?

[Batman]

I agree. Whilst one might argue that time constraints might have affected the manifestation of any skill/experience in most of the murders (not that I subscribe to that view), the same can't be said of Kelly where, even with more privacy and time at his disposal, the killer was just as messy and chaotic in his approach as he'd been with Nichols et seq.

Which I would think is one of the reasons why Dr. Bond who had experience with both Torsoman and JtR understood he wasn't looking at the same offender.

[DJA]

I have been unable to follow either of your posts. Can you please explain exactly what you mean?

Understandable. Sam is Welsh.

Like you posted,Bond knew JtR and Torsoman were different people.

[Batman]

Understandable. Sam is Welsh.

Like you posted,Bond knew JtR and Torsoman were different people.

"Either", as in, both your recent posts.

DJA, reread what I wrote again. It should be obvious then that I am implying this very thing. JtR can't do what Torsoman could do. It's as simple as that.

[DJA]

I understand that.

Your methodology and terminology is the problem.

[Batman]

I understand that.

Your methodology and terminology is the problem.

Not only did several people understand precisely what I was saying, but one of them was so taken aback by it as to call it all brainless and claims to refuse to want to speak to me about the topic again.

It is clear to everyone else I am afraid.

Anyway since you have chimed in, what say you to the OP?

Seems you are indicating you agree with it?

[Sam Flynn]

Understandable. Sam is Welsh.

Gan fy mod yn sgrifennu yn yr iaith Saesneg, ni ddylsai'r ffaith yma wneud unrhyw gwahaniaeth

[DJA]

Nope,I speak Strine

[DJA]

Not only did several people understand precisely what I was saying, but one of them was so taken aback by it as to call it all brainless and claims to refuse to want to speak to me about the topic again.

It is clear to everyone else I am afraid.

Anyway since you have chimed in, what say you to the OP?

Seems you are indicating you agree with it?

That would be the guy that reckons a carman did it.
Accept that as a blessing.

Sorta.

Firstly I believe Sutton had a 2 km or so walk home along "Hanbury Street" to Finsbury Square and probably carried a surgical knife for protection.

After the blackmail attempt by Nichols,he upgraded his weapon of choice.

That appears to be escalation.
Fair bet that Chapman was a TB patient of his which would account for the decapitation attempt.

Superfluous,however a change of "venue" was prolly agreed to by Eddowes,Stride and BS man for a payoff.
Stride's genetic disease was of little interest to Sutton,however Eddowes was a star patient.
Kelly was the ringleader.

[Batman]

That would be the guy that reckons a carman did it.
Accept that as a blessing.

Sorta.

Firstly I believe Sutton had a 2 km or so walk home along "Hanbury Street" to Finsbury Square and probably carried a surgical knife for protection.

After the blackmail attempt by Nichols,he upgraded his weapon of choice.

That appears to be escalation.
Fair bet that Chapman was a TB patient of his which would account for the decapitation attempt.

Superfluous,however a change of "venue" was prolly agreed to by Eddowes,Stride and BS man for a payoff.
Stride's genetic disease was of little interest to Sutton,however Eddowes was a star patient.
Kelly was the ringleader.

Okay, so this is your suspect and your claim. Fine. However, it doesn't address the OP.

The OP, BTW, indicates no medical knowledge for JtR at all.

[Fisherman]

I agree. Whilst one might argue that time constraints might have affected the manifestation of any skill/experience in most of the murders (not that I subscribe to that view), the same can't be said of Kelly where, even with more privacy and time at his disposal, the killer was just as messy and chaotic in his approach as he'd been with Nichols et seq.

I asked you this before, but you did not answer, Gareth:

There is no sign of any of the inner organs excised from Kelly having any damage at all. So how do we make a "messy and chaotic" killer dovetail with that? Would a "messy and chaotic" killer not just hack and slash - the way you want us to believe he did - and leave the organs like mincemeat inside his victim?
So why is it, then, that we are looking at a woman who has had her innards neatly plucked out and placed beside her?

Was it his moment of composure and exactitude, whereas the rest was "messy and chaotic"?

[DJA]

Seems this could be a very big strike against JtR being the Torso killer(s).

Kelly's amputated breasts by circular incisions demonstrate that JtR tried to amputate body parts. Her right arm was slightly abducted. Also, there are knife knotches found more than once on their vertebrates. Many of JtR's victim's heads are almost severed from their body.

Even if we debate if he was amputating, there is evidence he tried to do something, stopped and didn't follow through, especially with Kelly.

It seems these points jeopardize both attempts to give JtR some medical training and to associate him with the Torso murderer, who seems to have no problem with severing body parts and amputating them. For JtR, this is a problem and time limits can't be a factor, given we know with Kelly, he had lots of uninterrupted time to carry out his fantasies to the full.

Quite frankly so much of that is piffle.

Necks were severely cut and one attempt at decapitation is likely.

Nobody is seriously debating with you regarding Kelly.

Chapman and Eddowes show not just training but surgical expertise.

Not many think JtR and the Torso murderer were the same person.

Reckon this is going to go around in circles.

[Abby Normal]

Batman
saying that they were "failed amputations" is a misnomer as well as illogical.


to say someone failed you first have to know they were attempting something. we have no idea if the ripper was attempting it, on the contrary, considering the wounds on the victims and the time and freedom he had with Kelly it seems obvious he was attempting(and succeeded) evisceration and organ/parts removal. and amputation is a term used for living people. stick with dismemberment.