Torso Murders

[Trevor Marriott]

Dr Biggs believed that the flaps of skin were collateral damage such as tongues of skin joining chunks of meat that had not been completely severed from each other.

It seems you never took him out of that misconception, Trevor, which is a shame and not very honourable.

The flaps of skin cut away from Chapman, Kelly and Jackson were their abdominal walls, cut in four, three and two pieces, respectively. Have you grasped that, Trevor?

He has read the reports and given his opinion, again you medical knowledge and interpretation supersedes his with all his years of experience, you are truly amazing

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fisherman]

He has read the reports and given his opinion, again you medical knowledge and interpretation supersedes his with all his years of experience, you are truly amazing

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

He has never reported on his idea about abdominal walls being cut away in large flaps, Trevor. He believed that flaps were collateral damage, he was very clear on that point.
Having the abdominal wall cut away in two, three of four large flaps is not collateral damage.

Back to the drawing board, Trevor. Pull a new one.

And by the bye: anyone who thinks a collateral tongue of skin is the same as a large pane of skin cut away from the abdomen is certainly less fit to comment on the implications than I am.

[Robert St Devil]

Oroonoko Flow

Hello MAYERLING.

I thought Fisherman asked some interesting questions on pg. 41; the most interesting being, why distribute the body around London if the murderer is trying to conceal the identity.
Also, why dismember the body more than is necessary?
Also, why "float" the body parts in the river where they will be found (rather than sinking them down with weights)?
Also, I think the aspect of scalping may have come into the discussion.

Either way, it seemed to me to be ritualistic. Because of the scalping, I netted "Native American dismemberment", and I hit upon the story of Oroonoko. In A Companion to the Literature of Colonial America (p.272) Derek Hughes writes in his essay that Oroonoko sacrifices his wife,

to prevent the child from entering the cycle of the marketplace; and to the final ritual of dismemberment, in which the body reverts to being an abacus, quartered and distributed through the plantations.

I was hoping that you could fill in the gaps of the story

[Elamarna]

Hi robert

the last few weeks i have had that feeling back of my mind that the torso muders remind me of something recent but could not place what.

your post today made it snap into vision:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375024/Voodoo-human-sacrifice-The-haunting-story-Adam-Torso-Thames-boy-finally-identified.html

Very recent, dismemberment, dumped in Thames and ritualistic

We also had an actress, killed in a domestic, cut up and dumped in a London canal:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2111157/Gemma-McCluskie-murder-Brother-charged-headless-body-EastEnders-actress-dumped-canal.html

By the way, I am not a daily mail reader, but they came up first on google.



Steve

Hello MAYERLING.

I thought Fisherman asked some interesting questions on pg. 41; the most interesting being, why distribute the body around London if the murderer is trying to conceal the identity.
Also, why dismember the body more than is necessary?
Also, why "float" the body parts in the river where they will be found (rather than sinking them down with weights)?
Also, I think the aspect of scalping may have come into the discussion.

Either way, it seemed to me to be ritualistic. Because of the scalping, I netted "Native American dismemberment", and I hit upon the story of Oroonoko. In A Companion to the Literature of Colonial America (p.272) Derek Hughes writes in his essay that Oroonoko sacrifices his wife,

to prevent the child from entering the cycle of the marketplace; and to the final ritual of dismemberment, in which the body reverts to being an abacus, quartered and distributed through the plantations.

I was hoping that you could fill in the gaps of the story

[Fisherman]

Robert and Steve, NOW we are getting somewhere...! I don´t know if I would have used the term ritualistic in the Torso murder context, especially since I think that it was a much more personally shaped series of murders.
But in a sense, I guess that we could be speaking of "rites" that meant something to the killer.

When somebody leaves body parts to be found after having meticulously cut them up with great skill, there is every reason to think that the dismemberment as such meant something to the killer. The fact that he set about performing the dismemberment very close in time to the moment of death further strengthens the notion that the dismemberment was a defining part of the deed, and not just a means to get rid of the body.

[RockySullivan]

Taking the uterus from the torsos is something that is very perplexing to me. Was the motive that the killer wanted this organ as some type of fetish, or to eat or play with? I think the bodies may have been killed to be dismembered. I think the killer liked cutting people up, he killed the c5 to cut them up it seems like. Torsos seem the same. He likes cutting up dead bodies. What does this tell us about the killer anything? I think the chloride of lime is clue, or the condy's fluid

[Elamarna]

Robert and Steve, NOW we are getting somewhere...! I don´t know if I would have used the term ritualistic in the Torso murder context, especially since I think that it was a much more personally shaped series of murders.
But in a sense, I guess that we could be speaking of "rites" that meant something to the killer.

When somebody leaves body parts to be found after having meticulously cut them up with great skill, there is every reason to think that the dismemberment as such meant something to the killer. The fact that he set about performing the dismemberment very close in time to the moment of death further strengthens the notion that the dismemberment was a defining part of the deed, and not just a means to get rid of the body.

Hi fisherman

while that may certainly be true of the first case I listed, the second was a plain (if thats the right term) old murder and try and hide, not very well as it turned out.

Steve

[John Wheat]

ive heard that name-Bellsmith- put out before. could you tell us a little bit more about him and why you think he makes a good suspect?

To Abby Normal

The information on Wentworth Bellsmith is scarce. However he may have been The Batty Street Lodger. Bellsmith was reportedly a religious fanatic who wrote about how immoral whores were. It has been claimed that Bellsmith was seen in the area of The Pinchin Street Torso around the time it was discovered acting strangely. Some have suggested that due to the nature of The Torso Murders the murderer would have been taller than the victims. The tallest victim of the 1887-1889 Torso Murders was estimated to be between 5ft8-9. Bellsmith was 5ft10.

Cheers John

[Harry D]

And if these torsos were botched abortions, etc. why was one of them deliberately left in the vault of Scotland Yard's construction site? Was that a convenient dumping ground?

[RockySullivan]

John do you know the source for the pinchin st sighting story? One thing I'd be really interested in is finding out is a list of who lived at the address the PC was knocking up when the torso was dumped

[jerryd]

John do you know the source for the pinchin st sighting story? One thing I'd be really interested in is finding out is a list of who lived at the address the PC was knocking up when the torso was dumped

Rocky,

That would be Jeremiah Hurley, living on Ellen Place, that the PC knocked up.

[Fisherman]

Taking the uterus from the torsos is something that is very perplexing to me. Was the motive that the killer wanted this organ as some type of fetish, or to eat or play with? I think the bodies may have been killed to be dismembered. I think the killer liked cutting people up, he killed the c5 to cut them up it seems like. Torsos seem the same. He likes cutting up dead bodies. What does this tell us about the killer anything? I think the chloride of lime is clue, or the condy's fluid

My take too, Rocky - like I said before, I think Simon Wood turned it the wrong way around in the title of his book, "Deconstructing Jack". I think it is about Jack deconstructing, instead!

[Fisherman]

Hi fisherman

while that may certainly be true of the first case I listed, the second was a plain (if thats the right term) old murder and try and hide, not very well as it turned out.

Steve

Yes, I know, Steve - and that was the case I thought offered a peripheral comparison that is interesting.

[Fisherman]

And if these torsos were botched abortions, etc. why was one of them deliberately left in the vault of Scotland Yard's construction site? Was that a convenient dumping ground?

Maybe Trevor will offer the view that the clumsy abortionist was headed for the Thames, trunk over shoulder, when he heard somebody coming. So he scaled the fence of the building site -maybe he threw the trunk over the fence first, and picked it up as he jumped down on the other side - and hid in the lowest part of the cellar, and then he decided to leave the trunk there...

Any takers...?

[jerryd]

Sorry this is so large. I posted it on the other forum as well. The last part relates to two of the torsos [Pinchin and Whitehall]. If these weren't murders, why did the police act like they were? And for you Trevor, it must be true because Inspector Reid said so!