Torso Murders

[RockySullivan]

John G if you want to maintain any credibility stop quoting Marriott. I'm not sure why you can't understand that just because something is in print doesn't mean it isn't horseshit.

[Fisherman]

John G: But you seem to have unilaterally decided that TM, if he existed all, had exceptional knife skills. I mean, did any medical professional at the time say this? Nope, don't think so.

Then read again - he was more skilled knifewise than any surgeon!

Moreover, Paul Harrison and Dr Calder, who went as far as carrying out their own post mortem experiments, clearly concluded that, based on the medical evidence, both Eddowes' and Chapman's killer had human anatomical knowledge. As Paul Harrison pointed out, " To remove the kidney from its membrane as is documented shows a high level of skill and anatomical knowledge....The uterus was also removed without damaging any underlying tissue. This is also very difficult especially as the report says that the sigmoid colon was invaginated into the rectum very tightly." (Marriott, 2013).

Once more, one medico will say "expertise" and another will say "no expertise" - and dr Galloway FIRST said expertise and THEN said no expertise.

And we haven't even touched upon the radically different signature characteristics of JtR and TM. For instance, TM stored his victims for some time-in the case of the Whitehall victim, possibly several months- indicating he wanted to spend time with the remains, i.e. to relive the experience. On the other hand, JtR couldn't care less about such matters. And TM took extreme steps to prevent his victims from being identified; JTR couldn't care less. JtR's main objective was the targeting of body organs, not so TM. I could go on...

How do you know that JTR "could not care less"? He had no means to store his vixtims. If he had had the means, how would he have reacted? Neither you nor me know.
Torso man did not take extreme action to prevent identification - he dumped Jackson in her own clothing, for example.
How do you know that JTR:s main objective was targetting body organs? And how do you know that Torso mans was not - he eviscerated his victims too!

The similarities, John, how do you explain them? They both "coincidentally" happened to cut the abdominal walls away in large flaps? They both "coincidentally" cut their victims from breastbone to pubes? They both "coincidentally" took out both sexually connected organs and non-sexually connected organs?
Is that it? Is there even an off-hand chance that this would happen with two serialists in the same town, at the same time?
No, it is not. It defies logic.

Of course, I could also point out that you have failed to give a single example from world criminological history where a serial killer has dramatically alternated his signature in such a way.

Peter Kürten. End of.

Frankly, I think TM's signature is much closer to the Hammersmith Nude Murderer, not that they were the same person, if course. However, this killer stored the victims for significant periods and, although he didn't prevent them from being identified, he stripped the bodies, which eliminated forensic traces.

"Jack the Stripper" did not cut away the abdomnal walls in flaps. He did not take out both sexually oriented and non-sexually oriented organs etc. He does not fill the shoes of either the Ripper or Torso man.

And what's your overall conclusion? That Lechmere was a one man killing machine! Unbelievable !

Yes, it is unbelievable, since there has never been serialists who have killed many victims. Pedro Lopez, Gary Ridgway, John Wayne Gacy - these men never existed, because they were "unbelievable"...

Sweet Jesus, John - donīt flaunt it!

[Fisherman]

John G if you want to maintain any credibility stop quoting Marriott. I'm not sure why you can't understand that just because something is in print doesn't mean it isn't horseshit.

Touché!!!

[Fisherman]

So now a poet can't be a serial killer! Or that a poet can't evolve into a serial killer, but TM can evolve into JtR, then evolve back again!

Thats going from killing to killing, John - not going from poetry to killing and back again.

I am not saying that a poet cannot become a serial killer - I am saying that there are no examples of such a thing, just as there are no examples of painters, artists etc, with resonable carreers who have become serialists.

I am saying that the real world encourages us not to expect such a transformation.

[Fisherman]

But the medical professional at the time concluded that the killer was probably a hunter, or a butcher. In other words, a cut and slash merchant!

Are you stone deaf? Or just unable to admit things? The Torso killer was anything but a cut and slash merchant. He was a very skilled craftsman with the knife.

Dr Biggs suggested that dismemberment killers are all cut and slash merchants. He was wrong on that point. But he puts a finger on how unusual the Torso man was.

[Fisherman]

At least I clarified the issues with the experts and not simply like you taking no notice of what they say. Those are what are called short comings. I guess you are scared that any clarification made by dr Biggs will confirm what we already know that murders cannot be proven in āll the cases

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I donīt think that you are able to understand what Dr Biggs says or means, Trevor. I think that is way beyond your capacity along with the overall implications of the case.

Just as you say, I am no medical expert. But once I compare my knowledge to you, I am relieved to realize that there are those who are much less justified to speak up.

And I amend my shortcomings by discussing the medical implications with men like Jason Payne-James, who comment on the case, instead of making generalized observations that have nothing to do with it.

Do not waste my time any further, if you please!

[Joshua Rogan]

I am not saying that a poet cannot become a serial killer - I am saying that there are no examples of such a thing, just as there are no examples of painters, artists etc, with resonable carreers who have become serialists.

Maybe poets and artists make the most effective serial killers, since none have ever been caught?

[Fisherman]

Maybe poets and artists make the most effective serial killers, since none have ever been caught?

Thatīs a thought! If you can only explain why they are expert evaders of the police, you may have a very unexpected point...

[John G]

John G if you want to maintain any credibility stop quoting Marriott. I'm not sure why you can't understand that just because something is in print doesn't mean it isn't horseshit.

To to quote Abby, please don't misrepresent me. I have not quoted Trevor directly but the experts he consulted. If you wish to challenge those experts I will have to put you to the Pierre-test:

Pleas cite the medical school you attended. Pleaee cite all the qualifications you have acquired in forensics. Please refer me to all the peer-reviewed articles you have written.

I'm sure this won't be too difficult...

[John G]

Are you stone deaf? Or just unable to admit things? The Torso killer was anything but a cut and slash merchant. He was a very skilled craftsman with the knife.

Dr Biggs suggested that dismemberment killers are all cut and slash merchants. He was wrong on that point. But he puts a finger on how unusual the Torso man was.

Very skilled craftsmen with a knife? Please refer me to any medical expert that concluded this. And any medical professional who concluded thst he had knowledge of human anatomy.

And no, it was Paul Langford, a master butcher, who said that the cut and slash technique was employed in abattoirs. And the medical experts who concluded that TM, if he existed, was probably a hunter or a butcher.

Frankly, you seem to think that Lechmere was some sort of one man killing machines, with exceptional knife skills, knowledge of human anatomy, and capable of adopting different strategies.

Could I suggest a title for a book? Lechmere: Terminator. I'll be back!

[RockySullivan]

To to quote Abby, please don't misrepresent me. I have not quoted Trevor directly but the experts he consulted. If you wish to challenge those experts I will have to put you to the Pierre-test:

Pleas cite the medical school you attended. Pleaee cite all the qualifications you have acquired in forensics. Please refer me to all the peer-reviewed articles you have written.

I'm sure this won't be too difficult...

You know there are enough experts out there that you can find one to say what you want and pay them to put in your book right? You are like talking to a brick wall because you don't understand how wrong, useless and completely stupid medical graduates, forensic scientists and peer-reviewed authors can be.

[Joshua Rogan]

And no, it was Paul Langford, a master butcher, who said that the cut and slash technique was employed in abattoirs.

I actually find that hard to believe, are you sure that was a direct quote? I certainly wouldn't want to buy meat from an abattoir that wasn't careful about where they cut and what organs they might puncture and what substances might contaminate the carcass as a result....

[Fisherman]

John G: Very skilled craftsmen with a knife? Please refer me to any medical expert that concluded this. And any medical professional who concluded thst he had knowledge of human anatomy.

Are you too lazy to look for yourself, John? Have you forgotten that I already posted Charles Hebberts view that the Torso man did what a surgeon or an anatomist would not be able to do? Does Hebbert qualify as a medical expert in your book?
And Edward Galloway said that whoever had dismembered the Rainham corpse had "a thorough knowledge of anatomy", after having found that the legs and thighs had been removed with a perfectly straight cut. He also noted that ALL the cuts were clean, with no sign of jadedness, and added that it was the work of an expert.
Will that do for you?
The killer of the 1873 victim carefully cut away the face and scalp from the bone structure, leaving even the eyelashes intact on the mask.
Does that appear like "cut and slash" to you?
Dr Nevill, who was presented with one of the arms of the Whitehall victim, said that it had been "removed with great skill".
Will that do for you?
Bond and Hebbert subsequently looked at the same arm, and said that it had been "removed cleanly, with seven separate cuts".

And did anyone at the time conclude that the killer had anatomical knowledge?
Letīs return to that Whitehall arm again. Bond and Hebbert said that it had been removed by "a person with some knowledge of anatomy".
Is that enough for you?

Can we now drop the charade about cutting and slashing, or do you want me to further expose your misconceptions?

And no, it was Paul Langford, a master butcher, who said that the cut and slash technique was employed in abattoirs. And the medical experts who concluded that TM, if he existed, was probably a hunter or a butcher.

So just because the ordinary butcher can potentially be quick and sloppy (although it will cost him his job...), and because it was said by Hebbert that the killer COULD be a butcher (who Hebbert thought was anything but sloppy), we are to conclude that his work must have been quick and sloppy too?
Try the one bout Little red Riding Hood too, John...

Frankly, you seem to think that Lechmere was some sort of one man killing machines, with exceptional knife skills, knowledge of human anatomy, and capable of adopting different strategies.

Somebody apparently was all that, John...

We know that there are people who have killed twenty times as many people or more than I suggest Lechmere did. End of.

We know that the Torso man was exceptionally skilled with the knife. End of.

There was a widespread knowledge about anatomy among many members of the working class of London. You may have missed out on that too. This time, however, I will not give you the answer how. You will have to go looking for it yourself. End of.

There are examples of killers who have used different strategies. End of.

That was how much of an effort it took to pick you apart totally, John. You were wrong on the skill part, you were wrong on the anatomy part and you are wrong on the rest too. You have had the real answers quoted to you or exemplified. Where do you go from here?

Could I suggest a title for a book? Lechmere: Terminator. I'll be back!

No, actually you canīt suggest a title for me. Anybody who are fit to suggest a title must know the cases better than you do.

[RockySullivan]

I actually find that hard to believe, are you sure that was a direct quote? I certainly wouldn't want to buy meat from an abattoir that wasn't careful about where they cut and what organs they might puncture and what substances might contaminate the carcass as a result....

I'm not a historian or a published author on victorian-era meat and therefore obviously my opinions or ideas aren't worth anything but in 1880's London would butchers have used more parts of the animals? Possibly a lot more than a contemporary butcher who uses the slash and cut...

[Pierre]

Your absolutely correct Steve, although personally I wouldn't rule out the Tottenham Torso. Of course, if there was more than one Torso killer, although there's no proof most of the victims were murdered, this suggests that such a killer wasn't particularly rare.

Moreover, William Bury proves that there was at least one other East End resident capable at the time of mutilating a victim, unless he was JtR, of course.

Hi John,

I find the choice of location in the Tottenham case very strange. What do you think about it?

"Five days later, a police constable was passing Number 33 Fitzroy square, when he noticed a large brown paper parcel. Upon investigating, he found it contained a portion of a human torso. The murderer, it would seem, was one who was exceedingly daring or lucking in depositing the remains. According to the Pall Mall Gazette, "the side walk in front of the house is constantly patrolled by police…it is believed that the parcel was deposited between ten o'clock and ten fifteen, when the police relief takes place."

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...o-murders.html

Regards, Pierre