Torso Murders

[John Wheat]

Does anyone have a suspect for the Thames Torso Murders?

[Abby Normal]

Does anyone have a suspect for the Thames Torso Murders?

yeah-jack the ripper.

[John Wheat]

yeah-jack the ripper.

Well my own belief is that Jack and The Torso Killer were two very different killers. However some Ripper suspects are in my opinion more likely to be The Torso Killer than the Ripper. For example Wentworth Bellsmith who moved into Penge London in1873 shortly before the first possible Torso Murder and moved out of London shortly after the 1889 murder. It has also struck me how the myths about Jack are often to my mind more likely to fit who was the Torso Killer than Jack eg the top hated toff. The evidence would suggest the Torso Killer had money and because of this was able to move around. Also whoever was the Lodger possibly Wentworth Bellsmith or even possibly Francis Tumblety has always struck me as more likely to be The Torso Killer than Jack. The mysterious rich North American. Who takes up a Lodging, acts oddly, supposedly has a bloodstained shirt and then disappears. I've always thought Jack would be likely to try to get as little blood on him as possible and also any witnesses that may have seen Jack tend to describe someone with overcoats or jackets on.

Cheers John

[Trevor Marriott]

Does anyone have a suspect for the Thames Torso Murders?

How many murders are you suggesting there were?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Abby Normal]

Well my own belief is that Jack and The Torso Killer were two very different killers. However some Ripper suspects are in my opinion more likely to be The Torso Killer than the Ripper. For example Wentworth Bellsmith who moved into Penge London in1873 shortly before the first possible Torso Murder and moved out of London shortly after the 1889 murder. It has also struck me how the myths about Jack are often to my mind more likely to fit who was the Torso Killer than Jack eg the top hated toff. The evidence would suggest the Torso Killer had money and because of this was able to move around. Also whoever was the Lodger possibly Wentworth Bellsmith or even possibly Francis Tumblety has always struck me as more likely to be The Torso Killer than Jack. The mysterious rich North American. Who takes up a Lodging, acts oddly, supposedly has a bloodstained shirt and then disappears. I've always thought Jack would be likely to try to get as little blood on him as possible and also any witnesses that may have seen Jack tend to describe someone with overcoats or jackets on.

Cheers John

Hi John
Very interesting. Thanks!

The reason why I said the ripper is the more I learn about the torso cases and the recent research done, the more I see the similarities:

same victimology
same general location
same general time frame
Post mortem mutilation
abdomens targeted/mutilated
knife, cutting instrument used
unsolved
both involve a series
remains possibly displayed, but not definitely concealed
probable ruse involved to get victims where he wanted them

But the main thing IMHO, as shown by recent research by Debra Arif and others, is the uncanny similarity between how the flaps of skin were removed from the abdomens of Elizabeth Jackson and Mary Kelly (and also chapman).

Also, apparent difference in MO-dismemberment-could just be that the torso victims were when he could bring the victims to a private place and the ripper victims were when he could not, and had to kill on the streets. And dismemberment was mainly for ease in disposal and removal.

as of now, IMHO I see a slightly better than 50/50 chance they were the same killer.

[Fisherman]

Does anyone have a suspect for the Thames Torso Murders?

Yes. I do.

[John G]

Hi John
Very interesting. Thanks!

The reason why I said the ripper is the more I learn about the torso cases and the recent research done, the more I see the similarities:

same victimology
same general location
same general time frame
Post mortem mutilation
abdomens targeted/mutilated
knife, cutting instrument used
unsolved
both involve a series
remains possibly displayed, but not definitely concealed
probable ruse involved to get victims where he wanted them

But the main thing IMHO, as shown by recent research by Debra Arif and others, is the uncanny similarity between how the flaps of skin were removed from the abdomens of Elizabeth Jackson and Mary Kelly (and also chapman).

Also, apparent difference in MO-dismemberment-could just be that the torso victims were when he could bring the victims to a private place and the ripper victims were when he could not, and had to kill on the streets. And dismemberment was mainly for ease in disposal and removal.

as of now, IMHO I see a slightly better than 50/50 chance they were the same killer.

Hi Abby,

I'm afraid I would disagree with just about all of this. Victimology? Only one torso victim was identified.

General location? We have no idea where the torso victims were abducted from and body parts were scattered all over London.

General time frame? Some torso murders date back to the early 1870s.

Post mortem mutilation/ abdomen targeted? This only applies to the Pinchin Street Torso, as far as I'm aware, where the mutilations were no where near as extensive as the Whitechapel victims and, according to Dr Phillips, were carried out for purposes of disposal of the body. Moreover, no abdominal organs were removed, so different objective implies different killer.

Knife cutting instrument used? How else could a body be dismembered in the late nineteenth century? Note: the chainsaw hadn't been invented.

Unsolved? Agreed.

Both involved a series? How do you know? Where's the proof the torso victims were murdered?

Probable ruse? Well, at the risk of sounding like Pierre, can you provide source material for this assertion?

Debra Arif? Yes, I have the utmost respect for Debra. However, as I'm sure she'd acknowledge, she is not, as far as I'm aware, a medical expert, and therefore unqualified to give informative opinion in this area.

The others? Please cite their relevant medical qualifications.

[John Wheat]

Hi Abby,

I'm afraid I would disagree with just about all of this. Victimology? Only one torso victim was identified.

General location? We have no idea where the torso victims were abducted from and body parts were scattered all over London.

General time frame? Some torso murders date back to the early 1870s.

Post mortem mutilation/ abdomen targeted? This only applies to the Pinchin Street Torso, as far as I'm aware, where the mutilations were no where near as extensive as the Whitechapel victims and, according to Dr Phillips, were carried out for purposes of disposal of the body. Moreover, no abdominal organs were removed, so different objective implies different killer.

Knife cutting instrument used? How else could a body be doing smembered

To John G

At the time an axe could have been used to dismember a body. We simply don't know how the bodies were dismembered. If an axe or other cutting instrument other than a knife could be proven to have been used to dismember the body then it would be even less likely Jack was also The Torso Killer.

Cheers John

[John Wheat]

How many murders are you suggesting there were?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Several.

[John G]

Yes. I do.

I'm going to take a wild guess here. Is it Lechemere by any chance? Also, where was his dismemberment site? What mode of transportation did he use to transport the remains of his victims all over London? Where did he store the bodies?

[Fisherman]

To John G

At the time an axe could have been used to dismember a body. We simply don't know how the bodies were dismembered.

Cheers John

A finetoothed saw and a sharp knife was suggested by the medicos.

[John G]

To John G

At the time an axe could have been used to dismember a body. We simply don't know how the bodies were dismembered.

Cheers John

Hi John,

Yes, I agree. But obviously not a chainsaw!

[John Wheat]

A finetoothed saw and a sharp knife was suggested by the medicos.

To Fisherman

It wouldn't surprise me if The Torso Killer used a finetoothed saw and a sharp knife to dismember the bodies.

Cheers John

[Fisherman]

To Fisherman

It wouldn't surprise me if The Torso Killer used a finetoothed saw and a sharp knife to dismember the bodies.

Cheers John

It didnīt surprise the medicos either. So I think we can discard the notion that we donīt know which instruments were used!

[John G]

It didnīt surprise the medicos either. So I think we can discard the notion that we donīt know which instruments were used!

It depends how much reliance you place on the opinion of Victorian GPs! I mean, here's a basic question asked by Dr Biggs about Liz Jackson: "Are the fragments definitely the same individual?"