2 types of knives = 2 people?

[DVV]

Just the sad truth, my friend.

[Archaic]

I don't think Martha was stabbed with a bayonet. With so many wounds there must have been a stabbing frenzy, and some of the wounds are likely to have overlapped others.

As for the "soldier" theory, how likely is it that a soldier would be carrying a bayonet around with him?

If he did, wouldn't he have also been carrying his rifle (which would be rather conspicuous in the East End) and just come off guard duty or some kind of drill?

Thanks,
Archaic

[gnote]

Errata's knife expertise is kind of scary. Does she have an alibi?

[Wickerman]

I don't think Martha was stabbed with a bayonet. With so many wounds there must have been a stabbing frenzy, and some of the wounds are likely to have overlapped others.

In an autopsy the surgeon opens up the torso to investigate the length or depth of each wound, and which organs were penetrated.
This will also help to evaluate whether the weapon used had a double-sided blade, like a dagger, or a single-sided blade like a regular knife. So whether the opening in the skin was produced by an overlapping wound or not, the internal damage will either confirm this or perhaps tell a different story.
The wound to the sternum must have left an eliptical hole through the bone which outlined the shape of the blade that produced it. This is the most likely reason for the suggestion that a dagger had been used. The fact this also resembles a bayonet wound is perhaps coincidental, and may have been only suggested because it was known that soldiers were being investigated.
The wounds into the various organs will also tell the length, width and shape of the blade that caused them. This is why the doctor was able to describe two weapons were used. Stab a knife into some jelly/jello and see for yourself what shape the knife leaves when you withdraw it. It is almost like leaving a footprint.

As for the "soldier" theory, how likely is it that a soldier would be carrying a bayonet around with him?

We have had anecdotal information which suggests a sergeant, and higher ranks were allowed to carry side-arms when out on the town. However, all ranks were issued with a military pen-knife, and those were easy to conceal.

If he did, wouldn't he have also been carrying his rifle....

No.

[Archaic]

We have had anecdotal information which suggests a sergeant, and higher ranks were allowed to carry side-arms when out on the town. However, all ranks were issued with a military pen-knife, and those were easy to conceal.

Hi Jon, thanks.

Just to be clear about side-arms, this term as used in the military refers to smaller weapons such as pistols, swords and daggers that would be worn on the body in sheaths, holsters, etc.

I'm not sure a soldier would be carrying his bayonet if he wasn't also carrying his rifle. Bayonets were long, heavy and awkward.

Do you know what sort of bayonet c.1888 British troops barracked in London would have been carrying? I assumed the "socket" bayonet which was more prevalent at that time, but there were older "sword" bayonets and "sawback" bayonets. The latter had a serrated edge with saw teeth.

A photo would be great if anybody has one.

Photos of a military pen-knife and military dagger from that era would be interesting too.

I'm curious as to how the military blades would compare with various types of civilian knives.

Thanks,
Archaic

[harry]

Was it a bayonet wound,or a wound that appeared like a bayonet wound.I believe just one weapon w as used.

[Errata]

Errata's knife expertise is kind of scary. Does she have an alibi?

I was dead at the time.

When a person has to learn how to use a variety of blades to choreograph a fight that looks real but is in fact safe (ish) to all participants you learn a TON about mechanics. You have to be able to pull any blow in case something goes wrong, so you learn what your body does at every stage so you can abort an attack if say, your partner is way too close, or trips.

So I know how to kill someone because I spent a lot of time learning how to not kill someone.

[Batman]

Had Martha been seen drinking with a Siouan, Killeen would have voted for a tomahawk.

Be it dagger or bayonet there is still no explanation why a single killer performs a bone puncturing kill strike and then messes around with a pen knife after during mutilation when the dagger type blade has much more abilities for that.

Its like using a spoon to cut meat after you have used a steak knife.

[lynn cates]

daed

Hello Rocky. Thanks.

"So a workhouse inmate could have time alone with dead bodies."

Yes. More interesting, however, if they were still alive.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

good

Hello David. Hope you are well.

Good to see you posting.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Be it dagger or bayonet there is still no explanation

There is : that wasn't a job for this poor little doctor.

[DVV]

Hello David. Hope you are well.

Good to see you posting.

Cheers.
LC

Thank you so much, mon cher.
Hope you are fine too.

[DVV]

I was dead at the time.

So bright a reply..................

[Batman]

There is : that wasn't a job for this poor little doctor.

Maybe you can elaborate more on this.

Why go from a dagger used through the chest bone to using a pen knife for mutilation?

2 'attackers' has explanatory power here.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon, thanks.

Just to be clear about side-arms, this term as used in the military refers to smaller weapons such as pistols, swords and daggers that would be worn on the body in sheaths, holsters, etc.

Yes it does.
Higher ranks were trusted to carry weapons visible, but the context concerned their knives/bayonets, not pistols in this case.
I think it was Tom Cullen who included a quote (or paraphrase?) from an old prostitute who complained "those damn sodgers are always sticking us with their bayonets".

This was the 1887 pattern available.


Which does not mean a bayonet was used, but it is easy to see how a stab wound from this type of blade could be indistinguishable from a dagger.

Do you know what sort of bayonet c.1888 British troops barracked in London would have been carrying?

I did write to the Tower of London about this question way back in 1998, they could not confirm a particular style, several were available the more common being the well known 'pig-sticker' pattern.



and

Photos of a military pen-knife and military dagger from that era would be interesting too.