Did JtR change his MO after murdering Martha Tabram

[MrBarnett]

Interesting stuff. Where did you get the info from? Do you think it was Pearly Poll who was stabbed? She survived I presume?

Don’t tell Trevor - the attack was reported in several papers. Frustratingly I’ve not been able to ID the attacker. A follow up article claimed the victim was recovering at the London Hospital.

The victim won’t have been PP because Debra found she was in the infirmary at the time. And we can’t be sure that PP knew her husband in 1888, they didn’t marry until 1893. However, they were both living on and off in tiny NE Passage in 87/88, so it seems likely they knew each other.

Her husband ended his life in an asylum in Sussex. Prior to that he’d been in Claybury Asylum for a number of years. The Claybury records no longer exist but the Hellingly (Sussex) records do.

[Losmandris]

As ever when I consider the details of the Tabram murder I am reminded of the incident a month later when a blind man, said to have had an ‘ungovernable temper’, felled a women to the ground somewhere near Spitalfields Market and repeatedly stabbed her. This was in broad daylight and when members of the market crowd tried to intervene, he threw them aside and recommenced the attack.

The man was said to have sold laces in the streets and the woman was his companion who led him about.

Pearly Poll’s husband was a ‘vicious’, mentally unstable blind man who sold laces in the streets. He was also, despite being blind, a wood carver, and given that he was homeless he presumably carried the tools of his trade around with him.

Interesting stuff. Where did you get the info from? Do you think it was Pearly Poll who was stabbed? She survived I presume?

[Losmandris]

Perhaps not, if she had been rendered unconscious by a blow to the head.

This is true.

[MrBarnett]

The prices are academic, the point being is that The Anatomy Act allowed "bona fide medical personell" access to organs and in some cases the whole bodies from mortuaries.

Further research shows that body dealers would jump on the band wagon and by pass the legal process as set out in the Anatomy Act and acquire organs illegally from the mortuaries and then sell them to the teaching hospitals.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

The prices are key to demolishing the ‘mythical American’s’ offer of £20.

[MrBarnett]

Where and how did a newspaper in Sheffield manage to acquire such information unless thay had their own reporter who had access to records etc, that article becomes secondary evidence and therefore has to be treated with caution

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

The SET had representatives in London. One of them spoke to Francis Hewitt on the afternoon of 7th August.

[Trevor Marriott]

Let’s remind ourselves of what Trevor has an issue with. I posted the following quote from the Sheffield Evening Telegraph:

‘At that time blood was flowing from a great wound in her heart. Several other wounds had been inflicted, one of a most revolting nature.’

Leaving aside the claim that ‘blood was still flowing’ from the heart wound, all this is telling us is that there were a number of wounds including one to the heart and a ‘revolting’ one. It was the ‘revolting one’ that was being discussed.

Those simple facts are corroborated by the Times, the Telegraph and countless others newspapers. Donald Swanson stated that Martha had, ‘39 wounds on [her] body, neck and private part.’

Trevor’s happy to accept an uncorroborated PMG report about the specific prices charged for body parts because it suits his theory, but takes issue with a press description of Tabram’s wounds which has oodles of corroboration.

Where and how did a newspaper in Sheffield manage to acquire such information unless thay had their own reporter who had access to records etc, that article becomes secondary evidence and therefore has to be treated with caution

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Which is why researchers use them with caution. In this case we have several newspapers, including the Times and the Telegraph, saying the same thing and much of what they say being corroborated by police reports.

What specific corroboration is there for the prices quoted in the PMG?

The prices are academic, the point being is that The Anatomy Act allowed "bona fide medical personell" access to organs and in some cases the whole bodies from mortuaries.

Further research shows that body dealers would jump on the band wagon and by pass the legal process as set out in the Anatomy Act and acquire organs illegally from the mortuaries and then sell them to the teaching hospitals.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[MrBarnett]

Let’s remind ourselves of what Trevor has an issue with. I posted the following quote from the Sheffield Evening Telegraph:

‘At that time blood was flowing from a great wound in her heart. Several other wounds had been inflicted, one of a most revolting nature.’

Leaving aside the claim that ‘blood was still flowing’ from the heart wound, all this is telling us is that there were a number of wounds including one to the heart and a ‘revolting’ one. It was the ‘revolting one’ that was being discussed.

Those simple facts are corroborated by the Times, the Telegraph and countless others newspapers. Donald Swanson stated that Martha had, ‘39 wounds on [her] body, neck and private part.’

Trevor’s happy to accept an uncorroborated PMG report about the specific prices charged for body parts because it suits his theory, but takes issue with a press description of Tabram’s wounds which has oodles of corroboration.

[MrBarnett]

Its not rocket science to treat these victorian newspaper articles with caution and not fall into the trap of believing everything that is contained in them is the gospel truth which is what you seem to want to do.

You should know that even today Newspapers are less than liberal with the truth

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Which is why researchers use them with caution. In this case we have several newspapers, including the Times and the Telegraph, saying the same thing and much of what they say being corroborated by police reports.

What specific corroboration is there for the prices quoted in the PMG?

[MrBarnett]

As ever when I consider the details of the Tabram murder I am reminded of the incident a month later when a blind man, said to have had an ‘ungovernable temper’, felled a women to the ground somewhere near Spitalfields Market and repeatedly stabbed her. This was in broad daylight and when members of the market crowd tried to intervene, he threw them aside and recommenced the attack.

The man was said to have sold laces in the streets and the woman was his companion who led him about.

Pearly Poll’s husband was a ‘vicious’, mentally unstable blind man who sold laces in the streets. He was also, despite being blind, a wood carver, and given that he was homeless he presumably carried the tools of his trade around with him.

[Trevor Marriott]

It is indeed, Trevor. Obviously, being a mere ‘researcher’, I am unable to discern whether it’s one of ‘safe’ ones you rely on. Is there an approved list on which the Pall Mall Gazette appears, but the Times doesn’t?

Its not rocket science to treat these victorian newspaper articles with caution and not fall into the trap of believing everything that is contained in them is the gospel truth which is what you seem to want to do.

You should know that even today Newspapers are less than liberal with the truth

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[MrBarnett]

On 16th August, Edmund Reid wrote a report about the Tabram murder headed: SUBJECT Murder 6.8.88. In it he speaks of Pearly Poll appearing at Commercial Street police station on the 9th.

In a later report he corrects the date of the murder to the 7th, but describes PP as having taken her soldier up Angel Court. In the second report he speaks of Poll viewing Martha’s body on the day after the last time she saw her alive, which would have been the 7th. Perhaps he meant the day after the murder, but expressed it badly.

Did Poll see the body on the 7th/8th but not go to the police until the 9th?

Incidentally, the Times and other newspapers consistently printed the correct date and also referred to Angel Alley by its correct name.

[MrBarnett]

Do you not think she would have made a hell of a lot of noise?

Perhaps not, if she had been rendered unconscious by a blow to the head.

[MrBarnett]

Most people who get stabbed are alive at the time of being stabbed, is this another newspapers report you are citing?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

It is indeed, Trevor. Obviously, being a mere ‘researcher’, I am unable to discern whether it’s one of ‘safe’ ones you rely on. Is there an approved list on which the Pall Mall Gazette appears, but the Times doesn’t?

[Trevor Marriott]

Dr Killeen, who saw the body in situ and subsequently carried out the PM, was of the opinion that all of the wounds were inflicted while Martha was alive and that the wound to the heart would have been fatal.

Most people who get stabbed are alive at the time of being stabbed, is this another newspapers report you are citing?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk