Did JtR change his MO after murdering Martha Tabram

[erobitha]

But Jack still attacked with a knife you have to pierce the flesh to make a cut. Ps there was no evidence of sexual assault on any corpse before or after, masturbation or otherwise. So necrophilia does not seem to be the main cause of the murders.

"But Jack still attacked with a knife you have to pierce the flesh to make a cut."

So when I eat a steak I have to stab it before I cut it? Not sure you understand the difference between cutting and stabbing, they are profoundly different.

He took organs with him to do what he wanted. This ties in to that.

I guess getting genetic material evidence is a bit tricky 130 years later. Unless your Russell Edwards of course.

[MrBarnett]

So in effect what Dr Killeen is saying is that the deep wound to the sternum [ possibly caused by a dagger, his words ], didn't cause death nor did the seven wounds which penetrated the lungs or any other wound for that matter and that Martha must have been alive until the heart was penetrated which must have been the last wound since the inquest testimony says - His opinion was that one of the wounds was inflicted by some kind of dagger, and that all of them were caused during life.

Something is amiss here methinks

Regards Darryl

Is it just possible that a dagger thrust through her sternum also pierced her heart?

[Abby Normal]

So in effect what Dr Killeen is saying is that the deep wound to the sternum [ possibly caused by a dagger, his words ], didn't cause death nor did the seven wounds which penetrated the lungs or any other wound for that matter and that Martha must have been alive until the heart was penetrated which must have been the last wound since the inquest testimony says - His opinion was that one of the wounds was inflicted by some kind of dagger, and that all of them were caused during life.

Something is amiss here methinks

Regards Darryl

perhaps. seems to me, especially if this is a ripper murder,more likely that all tje wounds were when she was alive, the stab to the heart was the fatal blow, and then the cut to the privates was post mortem.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Dr Killeen, who saw the body in situ and subsequently carried out the PM, was of the opinion that all of the wounds were inflicted while Martha was alive and that the wound to the heart would have been fatal.

So in effect what Dr Killeen is saying is that the deep wound to the sternum [ possibly caused by a dagger, his words ], didn't cause death nor did the seven wounds which penetrated the lungs or any other wound for that matter and that Martha must have been alive until the heart was penetrated which must have been the last wound since the inquest testimony says - His opinion was that one of the wounds was inflicted by some kind of dagger, and that all of them were caused during life.

Something is amiss here methinks

Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

In the case of Tabram picquerism is the most obvious explanation. Except the the C5 were not stabbed. In this cases Keppel relies on the fact he believes stabbing occurred during the post-mortem mutilation. It did not. As I said before cutting and mutilation are very different to frenzied stabbing.

Take from 'Forensic and Medico-legal Aspects of Sexual Crimes and Unusual Sexual Practices' we learn what JtR was...

But Jack still attacked with a knife you have to pierce the flesh to make a cut. Ps there was no evidence of sexual assault on any corpse before or after, masturbation or otherwise. So necrophilia does not seem to be the main cause of the murders.

[MrBarnett]

No tight corner the truth is out there

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Don’t tell me - it’s in your book. :-)

[Trevor Marriott]

I’ll assume that means you got your info from press reports but have backed yourself into such a tight corner that you can’t admit it.

No tight corner the truth is out there

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[MrBarnett]

Seek and ye shall find !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I’ll assume that means you got your info from press reports but have backed yourself into such a tight corner that you can’t admit it.

[MrBarnett]

Intriguingly, I don't see any British bayonet design that lent itself to use sans rifle ... until 1888...
Bayonets of Britain: 1700 through the First World War (worldbayonets.com)

M.

There was a very long discussion about the bayonet issue some time ago. As always, there was no clear cut answer.

The point I was making though, was not whether a bayonet was used, but that an ex-soldier might have a better idea of where the heart was located than a docker or a carman.

[Trevor Marriott]

There are only two kinds of injuries that can be caused by a knife, incised (cuts) and punctured (stabs). So by your logic every knife attack on a woman in Whitechapel is likely to have been carried out by the Ripper. And therefore you presumably believe the blind man who stabbed his guide was the Ripper.

You have no idea as to what my logic is, but whatever it is it far exceeds yours

You didn’t answer my main question, where did you get your information that there were multiple injuries to Tabram’s lower abdomen?

Seek and ye shall find !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Aethelwulf]

As someone else on here said, Tabram's murder sounds frenzied and potentially quite noisy and in a very risky location. If this was his first successful attack, would he have been worried he was seen or heard. Would he lie low for a couple of weeks in August - maybe even leave the area (go on holiday?)?

[Losmandris]

Thanks Tristan, But im afaide from Tabram to what he did to Mary Jane Kelly with a ""knife"" in just a short time , whole different ball game if you ask me. Regards .

Was also a pretty big leap from Nichols to MJK surely? For me not so much of a leap between Tabram and Nichols though!

[Mark J D]

Was he lucky with his final thrust that penetrated her heart? Or did he know all along where best to stab to cause instant death?

If he’d had bayonet training, he’d probably have known the most efficient way to despatch someone.

(Did I mention my blind wood carver was an ex-soldier who had been court-martialled in India, sentenced to 5 years imprisonment and discharged with ignominy before he wound up living alongside Pearly Poll in NE Oasssge:-))

Intriguingly, I don't see any British bayonet design that lent itself to use sans rifle ... until 1888...
Bayonets of Britain: 1700 through the First World War (worldbayonets.com)

M.

[MrBarnett]

Thanks Tristan, But im afaide from Tabram to what he did to Mary Jane Kelly with a ""knife"" in just a short time , whole different ball game if you ask me. Regards .

There were any number of men (and women) in the East End who were capable of flying into a rage and repeatedly stabbing someone. How many were there who would have had the motivation and the stomach to rip open their victims’ bodies and grub about in their insides?

[MrBarnett]

I take clues from the sources that were at the front line of this murder i.e. Dr Killen who stated that there were 39 stab wounds to the body and neck, including nine to the throat, five in the left lung, two in the right lung, one in the heart, five in the liver, two in the spleen, and six in the stomach, also wounds to her lower abdomen and genitals.

There is no mention of one specific horrific wound to which you refer.

Tabram was murdered and her body mutilated in the same way the later victims would be, so I would suggest she was the first of the victims of JTR. But I also make mention that no attempt was made to remove organs, as would be the case of Nicholls and Stride, and you can also include Mckenzie and Frances Coles in that equation.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

As far as I’m aware there was only one cut to the lower abdomen/genitals/private part, the one Hewitt or the PET reporter described as ‘revolting’.

Looking at the list provided by Trevor (which he must have obtained from a press report) what immediately stands out for me is the focus on the throat. The focus of the blind man in the Spitalfields attack seems to have been his victim’s neck. He felled her to the ground and repeatedly stabbed her. That is very similar to the attack on Tabram. The attacks on the C5 are not, which is why we have to imagine the huge leap from stabbing to ripping as being an escalation that developed in a matter of a few days.