Did JtR change his MO after murdering Martha Tabram

[MrBarnett]

I think you should read my book and then you might want to retract that statement.

I asked a simple question what are the police reports you are referring to that show she was subjected to such a serious wound that in cant be described, and such a wound that Dr Killen overlooked it despite him carrying out the post mortem.

I think you need to filter out all the usless crap that surrounds these murders, that you seek to rely on, then you might understand the real facts a bit better

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I’ve already provided the information - and you should already be aware of it.

Swanson mentions it in a summary of the case; the ELO mentions it in its coverage of the inquest; and even before the inquest the SET quoted Hewitt describing it as ‘revolting’.

How many clues do you need from independent sources?

[Trevor Marriott]

I’ve already provided the corroboration by Reid, Swanson, the Times, the Telegraph etc. Please don’t waste everybody’s time in a futile attempt to save face.

What this appears to show is that you have only a patchy knowledge of the subject that you’ve written a book about. Wow!

I think you should read my book and then you might want to retract that statement.

I asked a simple question what are the police reports you are referring to that show she was subjected to such a serious wound that in cant be described, and such a wound that Dr Killen overlooked it despite him carrying out the post mortem.

I think you need to filter out all the usless crap that surrounds these murders, that you seek to rely on, then you might understand the real facts a bit better

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[MrBarnett]

Well you cite part of the article and I quote ‘At that time blood was flowing from a great wound in her heart. Several other wounds had been inflicted, one of a most revolting nature.’

The truth is there is no evidence of such a wound being described so the article/articles are unsafe

Do you not think such a wound would not have been referrred to by Dr Killen or at least he could have asked the coroner for leave to not describe it in its entirety?

and what are the police reports you refer to?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I’ve already provided the corroboration by Reid, Swanson, the Times etc. Please don’t waste everybody’s time in a futile attempt to save face.

What this appears to show is that you have only a patchy knowledge of the subject that you’ve written a book about. Wow!

[Trevor Marriott]

They claimed it was their own reporter (twice).

The report didn’t appear anywhere other than the Sheffield papers.

The SET was a new title that had reporting staff in London who submitted a daily Parliamentary Sketch.

And, as I have already said, the facts being discussed were corroborated by numerous other papers, including the Times and the Telegraph, and by police reports.

So what’s your issue with what I posted?

Well you cite part of the article and I quote ‘At that time blood was flowing from a great wound in her heart. Several other wounds had been inflicted, one of a most revolting nature.’

The truth is there is no evidence of such a wound being described so the article/articles are unsafe

Do you not think such a wound would not have been referrred to by Dr Killen or at least he could have asked the coroner for leave to not describe it in its entirety?

and what are the police reports you refer to?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[MrBarnett]

Well if you know different then please fee free to enlighten us

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

They claimed it was their own reporter (twice).

The report didn’t appear anywhere other than the Sheffield papers.

The SET was a new title that had reporting staff in London who submitted a daily Parliamentary Sketch.

And, as I have already said, the facts being discussed were corroborated by numerous other papers, including the Times and the Telegraph, and by police reports.

So what’s your issue with what I posted?

[Trevor Marriott]

So what makes you think the SET report was filed by an agency reporter?

Well if you know different then please fee free to enlighten us

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[MrBarnett]

i am aware of how the agency system works but it doesnt detract from the fact that when a newspaper publishes an agency report it becomes secondary evidence simply because the accuracy of what is printed in the report cannot be verified as being correct. For all we know the agency reporter could have made it all up or part of it up just to give it more appeal.

Thats how we get so many conflicting newspapers reports on the same topic and on that basis whiuch one do you believe to be the real truth

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

So what makes you think the SET report was filed by an agency reporter?

[Trevor Marriott]

ah I see. so eddowes and chapman both had there bodies ripped open and there intestines pulled out, but the killer wasnt the one who removed their organs? and kelly just happened to have body parts removed and laid on the table next to her and on the bed, but the killer wasnt the one who took away any? lol
seriously trevor where do you come up with this stuff?

Does all of that prove the killer removed the organs and took them away, no it doesnt

I come up with this stuff by assesing and evaluating the facts and the evidence in an ubiased fashion and applying common sense and straightforward logic which is what you might be aversed to trying sometime instead of the mickey mouse theories you keep coming out with and posting on here. Some of the posts seen on here of late make this site akin to amateur night at dixie.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

That's a lame question coming from someone who has been around Ripper studies as long as you have Trevor. You act as if you don't know that the agency reports on the Ripper murders were available by telegraph nationwide. London newspapers often used agency interviews, but space in London papers was always a premium, they had to pick & choose what they published. Not so the regional papers, we can often find items of interest in regional papers not published in the London press, but you know this......at least you should.
It was never necessary for every regional newspaper to have their own reporter in London.

i am aware of how the agency system works but it doesnt detract from the fact that when a newspaper publishes an agency report it becomes secondary evidence simply because the accuracy of what is printed in the report cannot be verified as being correct. For all we know the agency reporter could have made it all up or part of it up just to give it more appeal.

Thats how we get so many conflicting newspapers reports on the same topic and on that basis whiuch one do you believe to be the real truth

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[MrBarnett]

ah I see. so eddowes and chapman both had there bodies ripped open and there intestines pulled out, but the killer wasnt the one who removed their organs? and kelly just happened to have body parts removed and laid on the table next to her and on the bed, but the killer wasnt the one who took away any? lol
seriously trevor where do you come up with this stuff?

I think he gets a lot of his facts from newspaper reports.

[MrBarnett]

Great stuff. Thanks for sharing. This story really is packed full of interesting characters. Amazing how in many ways JtR only plays a minor role in it all. If it is him, the husband sound like a real catch.

Within a few weeks of their getting married, Poll was admitted to the SGE infirmary to be treated for syphilis.

Thomas Fogarty was the blind man’s name. I found him by chance a few years back shacked up with PP in NE Passage before they were married. With considerable help from Debra and Robert on JTRForums I’ve been able piece most of his life story together, but there are a few irritating gaps.

NE Passage is interesting because Poll often stayed there at John Satchell’s doss house and Satchell also ran the doss house in George Street where Poll and Martha were living in 1888.

[Abby Normal]

The mythical offer is irrelevant because who ever was interviewed by the PMG from what would seem to be a teaching hospital who acquired organs form mortuaries.

The point is as i keep saying organs were accessible to bona fide medical personell and also illegal body dealers. So the point of that it to show that it was quite possible that Eddowes and Chapmans organs were removed at the mortuary and not by their killers at the crime scenes.

Chapmans body was left for 8 hours at the mortuary before the post mortem
Eddowes body was left for almost 12 hours before the post mortem

More than enough time for organs to be removed and it should be noted that with both of these victims both their abdomens had been opened up to the point that it would have been easy to access the organs and remove them un noticed, because no examination at the scene was carried out which would have showed organs missing.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

ah I see. so eddowes and chapman both had there bodies ripped open and there intestines pulled out, but the killer wasnt the one who removed their organs? and kelly just happened to have body parts removed and laid on the table next to her and on the bed, but the killer wasnt the one who took away any? lol
seriously trevor where do you come up with this stuff?

[Losmandris]

Don’t tell Trevor - the attack was reported in several papers. Frustratingly I’ve not been able to ID the attacker. A follow up article claimed the victim was recovering at the London Hospital.

The victim won’t have been PP because Debra found she was in the infirmary at the time. And we can’t be sure that PP knew her husband in 1888, they didn’t marry until 1893. However, they were both living on and off in tiny NE Passage in 87/88, so it seems likely they knew each other.

Her husband ended his life in an asylum in Sussex. Prior to that he’d been in Claybury Asylum for a number of years. The Claybury records no longer exist but the Hellingly (Sussex) records do.

Great stuff. Thanks for sharing. This story really is packed full of interesting characters. Amazing how in many ways JtR only plays a minor role in it all. If it is him, the husband sound like a real catch.

[Wickerman]

Where and how did a newspaper in Sheffield manage to acquire such information unless thay had their own reporter who had access to records etc, that article becomes secondary evidence and therefore has to be treated with caution

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

That's a lame question coming from someone who has been around Ripper studies as long as you have Trevor. You act as if you don't know that the agency reports on the Ripper murders were available by telegraph nationwide. London newspapers often used agency interviews, but space in London papers was always a premium, they had to pick & choose what they published. Not so the regional papers, we can often find items of interest in regional papers not published in the London press, but you know this......at least you should.
It was never necessary for every regional newspaper to have their own reporter in London.

[Trevor Marriott]

The prices are key to demolishing the ‘mythical American’s’ offer of £20.

The mythical offer is irrelevant because who ever was interviewed by the PMG from what would seem to be a teaching hospital who acquired organs form mortuaries.

The point is as i keep saying organs were accessible to bona fide medical personell and also illegal body dealers. So the point of that it to show that it was quite possible that Eddowes and Chapmans organs were removed at the mortuary and not by their killers at the crime scenes.

Chapmans body was left for 8 hours at the mortuary before the post mortem
Eddowes body was left for almost 12 hours before the post mortem

More than enough time for organs to be removed and it should be noted that with both of these victims both their abdomens had been opened up to the point that it would have been easy to access the organs and remove them un noticed, because no examination at the scene was carried out which would have showed organs missing.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk