Did JtR change his MO after murdering Martha Tabram

[MrBarnett]

Now you see in your haste to be a smart arse you didnt read my original post correctly where I stated that there was corroboration to both legal and illegal trade in organs from mortuaries. The legal side relates to organs available under the guise of The Anatomy Act.

Its all in the revised edition of my book seek and ye shall find.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I read it correctly but you didn’t provide any indication of how you were able to corroborate the prices quoted by the PMG. ‘Trade’, whether legal or illegal, implies payment somewhere along the line.

What was the price of an illegally traded uterus in 1888?

[MrBarnett]

I havent a clue what you are talking about with this post

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

How do you know Baxter wasn’t misquoted by the unsafe press when he claimed to have been told that the American was offering £20 per specimen?

It’s only if his £20 figure and the PMG’s lower figures are accurate that the American’s offer becomes implausible.

Presumably you have specific corroboration for both figures.

[Losmandris]

I agree Abby. Perhaps Jack struggled to throttle Maratha and afterwards in the cold light of day he realised that strangling on its own was not enough to subdue his victims but he had to cut their throats as well before performing any sort of post death mutilations.

Regards Darryl

I tend to agree with you here Darryl. I know I am in no position to do this but I sometimes wonder about the conclusions of the PM. I don't see how the two knife theory can be explained and would imagine someone being stabbed 39 times would make a hell a lot of noise, that someone in the building would have heard. Surely she must have been strangled at least a bit or somehow incapacitated first?

[Losmandris]

i see what your saying, and some what agree, but if she was a ripper victim she may have been a trigger and or unplanned kill and was sparked by something that happened between them and angered him. also, and i think someone mentioned before, that as an early clumsy ripper attempt, that perhaps it was more like panic stabbings when she didnt go down easily after a possible strangulation or blows to head attempt to incapacitate her. theres so so many other similarities to the rest of the series in time and place, victimology, and the clincher for me... the raised skirt.

This indeed makes sense, if as you say she was a JtR victim. I certainly believe she was, I think it has escalation/refinement of MO written all over it. I personally am skeptical of the soldier angle as Pearly Poll is just too unreliable.

[MrBarnett]

I’m guessing that Trevor has no independent source for the cost of body parts, otherwise why would he refer to an unsafe press report for his figures?

So he seems to be doing exactly what he accuses ‘researchers’ of doing, accepting an unsafe press report that supports his theory. That there was a trade in body parts isn’t the issue, it’s how easily and at what cost they could have been obtained by Baxter’s ‘Mythical American’.

What if the PMG’s compositer had a bad day that day and got the numbers wrong? We see that so often with addresses. If - and it’s a big if - Trevor lives up to his own high standards, he was presumably able to corroborate the PMG’s figures.

[MrBarnett]

I tend to agree with you here Darryl. I know I am in no position to do this but I sometimes wonder about the conclusions of the PM. I don't see how the two knife theory can be explained and would imagine someone being stabbed 39 times would make a hell a lot of noise, that someone in the building would have heard. Surely she must have been strangled at least a bit or somehow incapacitated first?

At some point she received an injury to the head.

Why are we imagining a method of incapacitation (strangling) for which there is no medical evidence when there is medical evidence that supports her being incapacitated by a blow to head?

It feels like an attempt to make Tabram fit the series.

[GBinOz]

Not newspapers as primary source materials.

When perusing newspaper articles we see so many conflciting articles on the respective topics, and we then see researchers cherry picking a particular article or a part of an arcticle to suit their theory.
Couldn't agree more with this statement.

The only reliable sources in my opinion are the signed inquest depositions.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

How does one locate signed inquest depositions?

Cheers, George

[MrBarnett]

While we lesser mortals are happy to accept that Tabram died as a result of ‘syncope’ resulting from blood loss, Trevor has no idea what her cause of death was. It doesn’t even appear on her death certificate.

[MrBarnett]

This indeed makes sense, if as you say she was a JtR victim. I certainly believe she was, I think it has escalation/refinement of MO written all over it. I personally am skeptical of the soldier angle as Pearly Poll is just too unreliable.

Do you have a theory as to why Poll might have put herself in jeopardy by lying to the police and under oath?

[Losmandris]

At some point she received an injury to the head.

Why are we imagining a method of incapacitation (strangling) for which there is no medical evidence when there is medical evidence that supports her being incapacitated by a blow to head?

It feels like an attempt to make Tabram fit the series.

Maybe? Again blow to the head 'could' be JtRs first attempts at perfecting his MO? Certainly a significant possibility in my view and certainly in keeping with other killers.

[Losmandris]

Do you have a theory as to why Poll might have put herself in jeopardy by lying to the police and under oath?

As stated earlier I think it was her attempt at 15 minutes of fame. Hence all the theatrics.

[MrBarnett]

As stated earlier I think it was her attempt at 15 minutes of fame. Hence all the theatrics.

Yes, that’s plausible in my view. There are other possibilities, of course. The one that seems least plausible to me is the idea that Poll was the chosen agent of a shadowy group involving the Lords of Spitalfields, the police etc.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

How does one locate signed inquest depositions?

Cheers, George

Copies of them can be found in the Ultimate Sourcebook under the resepctive inquests

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

I’m guessing that Trevor has no independent source for the cost of body parts, otherwise why would he refer to an unsafe press report for his figures?

So he seems to be doing exactly what he accuses ‘researchers’ of doing, accepting an unsafe press report that supports his theory. That there was a trade in body parts isn’t the issue, it’s how easily and at what cost they could have been obtained by Baxter’s ‘Mythical American’.

What if the PMG’s compositer had a bad day that day and got the numbers wrong? We see that so often with addresses. If - and it’s a big if - Trevor lives up to his own high standards, he was presumably able to corroborate the PMG’s figures.

Is there any know reason why the source quoted by the PMG would be wrong given we know that organs were obtainable legally, I would guess they would not be giving then away for nothing, so the source quoted in the article must be from someone directly involved in that process and is clearly from one of the teaching hospitals who would need to acquire organs.

From my theoretical persepctive I dont belive it to be unsafe, there are no other articles which conflcit with that article to make it unsafe which is what we see from the inquest and witness testimonies regarding other issues. Furthermore we know that the teaching hospitals needed organs for teaching purposes. So how did they acquire them.

So it is right to suggest that the organs from Eddowes were taken away for medical research, from the mortuary and not by the killer at the crime scene.

I would sugget you do some research of the activities of Victorian body dealers and their illegal working partnerships with mortuary attendants and see how lucrative this business was.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[MrBarnett]

Copies of them can be found in the Ultimate Sourcebook under the resepctive inquests

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

My copy only contains Times reports of the Tabram inquest.