Did JtR change his MO after murdering Martha Tabram

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Trevor,



I agree, that aspect of her murder is one of the main points that suggests she needs to be considered as a serious potential case. Many of the police at the time certainly included her, though of course not all. Nichols abdominal slashes could be viewed as much more frenzied and less "goal directed" (the goal being to open up the abdominal cavity and explore), and certainly the slashes to Eddowes face would be characterised as frenzied, though some argue the cuts over her eyes were deliberate, purposeful, and meticulous, I'm not sure they couldn't result from a less purposefully made slash (placing the blade along the face and slicing, such that the eye socket affords some protection to the lower structures due to them being inset lower than the brow type thing).

- Jeff

Is it just me but on the main page, in the victims thread, the title of this thread isn’t showing? It just records a post by you at 10.46?

If it’s not just me then that’s twice in the last couple of days that there’s been an anomaly on threads involving you. Has someone put a curse on you recently Jeff?

Now it’s showing my name but no mention of the thread. Strange.

[JeffHamm]

Is it just me but on the main page, in the victims thread, the title of this thread isn’t showing? It just records a post by you at 10.46?

If it’s not just me then that’s twice in the last couple of days that there’s been an anomaly on threads involving you. Has someone put a curse on you recently Jeff?

Now it’s showing my name but no mention of the thread. Strange.

Yah, I don't know what that is. I've seen this before, though, where a thread name doesn't show up. It's not me this time.

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

Tabram's injuries were stab wounds. Bagster Phillip's said when he was recalled to Chapman's inquest that medical opinion was that the stomach mutilations in Nicholls case were prior to the throat cutting where as Chapman had her throat cut before the mutilations. At the Chapman inquest the coroner concluded "the injuries have been made by some one who had considerable anatomical skill and knowledge. There are no meaningless cuts". This does not sound like a frenzied attack. At the Stride inquest the coroner concluded "There had been no skilful mutilation as in the cases of Nichols and Chapman, and no unskilful injuries as in the case in Mitre-square - possibly the work of an imitator". Eddows was the first to receive facial injuries, believed by psychologists to be an indication that the murderer and victim knew each other. Were the slits to the eyes and the V's pointing to the slits a message that she had seen too much? Kelly was a complete change of MO.

There is some speculation that the murder weapon was a Liston knife, which is double edged and designed to be used with a stab and cut upwards action.

We have the choice: Did JtR change his MO as he went along, or was there more than one killer involved?

Cheers, George

[FISHY1118]

Tabram's injuries were stab wounds. Bagster Phillip's said when he was recalled to Chapman's inquest that medical opinion was that the stomach mutilations in Nicholls case were prior to the throat cutting where as Chapman had her throat cut before the mutilations. At the Chapman inquest the coroner concluded "the injuries have been made by some one who had considerable anatomical skill and knowledge. There are no meaningless cuts". This does not sound like a frenzied attack. At the Stride inquest the coroner concluded "There had been no skilful mutilation as in the cases of Nichols and Chapman, and no unskilful injuries as in the case in Mitre-square - possibly the work of an imitator". Eddows was the first to receive facial injuries, believed by psychologists to be an indication that the murderer and victim knew each other. Were the slits to the eyes and the V's pointing to the slits a message that she had seen too much? Kelly was a complete change of MO.

There is some speculation that the murder weapon was a Liston knife, which is double edged and designed to be used with a stab and cut upwards action.

We have the choice: Did JtR change his MO as he went along, or was there more than one killer involved?

Cheers, George

''Eddows was the first to receive facial injuries, believed by psychologists to be an indication that the murderer and victim knew each other. Were the slits to the eyes and the V's pointing to the slits a message that she had seen too much?''

What could she have known that the killer thought she had seen too much ? if you have some thoughts i keen to hear them, or are you just thinking out loud .?.

[GBinOz]

''Eddows was the first to receive facial injuries, believed by psychologists to be an indication that the murderer and victim knew each other. Were the slits to the eyes and the V's pointing to the slits a message that she had seen too much?''

What could she have known that the killer thought she had seen too much ? if you have some thoughts i keen to hear them, or are you just thinking out loud .?.

Hi Fishy,

Eddows had told one of her friends that she knew the identity of JtR and was going to collect the reward for his capture. There was also a report: A young dressmaker identified Deeming as a man with a prominent fair moustache she knew as 'Lawson' who courted her in London at the time of the Ripper murders and who showed an obsessive interest in the details of Eddowes’ murder. Unsubstantiated reports also suggested Deeming had corresponded with Eddowes and had been close to her at one point. She identified Deeming from a photo, and Lawson was one of his known aliases.

Cheers, George

[FISHY1118]

Many thanks George . Very interesting indeed.

[GBinOz]

Many thanks George . Very interesting indeed.

Quite an interesting article on Deeming here:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10007789/Frederick-Deeming-killed-two-wives-four-children-Jack-Ripper.html

[FISHY1118]

Good reading George , im also reading reports here on casebook that Deeming was in fact in South Africa at the time of the murders , as far as suspects goes that doesnt bode well for him .

[Trevor Marriott]

''Eddows was the first to receive facial injuries, believed by psychologists to be an indication that the murderer and victim knew each other. Were the slits to the eyes and the V's pointing to the slits a message that she had seen too much?''

What could she have known that the killer thought she had seen too much ? if you have some thoughts i keen to hear them, or are you just thinking out loud .?.

There is a simple explantion for Eddowes facial injuries and that is if the killer was behind her and they were both standing up, and the killer was trying to cut her throat and she was trying to avoid the blade her face could have been cut in that way by the movemnt of the knife.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FISHY1118]

There is a simple explantion for Eddowes facial injuries and that is if the killer was behind her and they were both standing up, and the killer was trying to cut her throat and she was trying to avoid the blade her face could have been cut in that way by the movemnt of the knife.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

There is , but that aint it.

[Trevor Marriott]

There is , but that aint it.

It is more plausible than the one you suggest but of course there is another if it is accepted that the wounds to her cheeks were in fact specific x`s

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FISHY1118]

It is more plausible than the one you suggest but of course there is another if it is accepted that the wounds to her cheeks were in fact specific x`s



www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I havent suggested anything .......yet.

[Losmandris]

Why didn’t Killeen mention that there was evidence of strangulation?

Good question Mr B.

He did not mention it but there seems to be evidence that strangulation could have taken place. The Illustrated Police News on 18 August 1888 reports that Tabram had received severe injuries to the head, the result of "being throttled while held down, and the face and head so swollen and distorted in consequence that her real features are not discernible." Also that Tabram was found on her back, her hands clenched in a repose suggesting strangulation. (thanks Quentin L. Pittman, www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-recanon.html)

If this was the case it would seem like strangulation was quite likely. But as you say surely this would have been at least acknowledged at the PM? Strange?

[Losmandris]

In my opinon she could have been the first victim as she was stabbed 39 times in a frenzied attack, which is how some of the other victims were attacked also in what I would describe as frenzied attacks.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

I believe the frenzied nature of the attack is the result of Tabram not being dispatched by the initial strangulation and stabs to the throat. She comes round as it were, the killer panics and goes into a frenzy of stabbing. Hence in later murders he changes his MO from stabbing the throat to slashing it. Once he is sure they are dead he can then carry out the post mortum injuries at leisure.

[FISHY1118]

It is more plausible than the one you suggest but of course there is another if it is accepted that the wounds to her cheeks were in fact specific x`s



www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Which is what george was saying , so which do you think?. your unrealistic post 24. Or accepted wounds to her cheeks were deliberate? Or do you require a 3rd go?