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Did JtR change his MO after murdering Martha Tabram

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  • #16
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
    Hi Trevor,



    I agree, that aspect of her murder is one of the main points that suggests she needs to be considered as a serious potential case. Many of the police at the time certainly included her, though of course not all. Nichols abdominal slashes could be viewed as much more frenzied and less "goal directed" (the goal being to open up the abdominal cavity and explore), and certainly the slashes to Eddowes face would be characterised as frenzied, though some argue the cuts over her eyes were deliberate, purposeful, and meticulous, I'm not sure they couldn't result from a less purposefully made slash (placing the blade along the face and slicing, such that the eye socket affords some protection to the lower structures due to them being inset lower than the brow type thing).

    - Jeff
    Is it just me but on the main page, in the victims thread, the title of this thread isn’t showing? It just records a post by you at 10.46?

    If it’s not just me then that’s twice in the last couple of days that there’s been an anomaly on threads involving you. Has someone put a curse on you recently Jeff?

    Now it’s showing my name but no mention of the thread. Strange.
    Regards

    Sir Herlock Sholmes.

    “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

      Is it just me but on the main page, in the victims thread, the title of this thread isn’t showing? It just records a post by you at 10.46?

      If it’s not just me then that’s twice in the last couple of days that there’s been an anomaly on threads involving you. Has someone put a curse on you recently Jeff?

      Now it’s showing my name but no mention of the thread. Strange.
      Yah, I don't know what that is. I've seen this before, though, where a thread name doesn't show up. It's not me this time.

      - Jeff

      Comment


      • #18
        Tabram's injuries were stab wounds. Bagster Phillip's said when he was recalled to Chapman's inquest that medical opinion was that the stomach mutilations in Nicholls case were prior to the throat cutting where as Chapman had her throat cut before the mutilations. At the Chapman inquest the coroner concluded "the injuries have been made by some one who had considerable anatomical skill and knowledge. There are no meaningless cuts". This does not sound like a frenzied attack. At the Stride inquest the coroner concluded "There had been no skilful mutilation as in the cases of Nichols and Chapman, and no unskilful injuries as in the case in Mitre-square - possibly the work of an imitator". Eddows was the first to receive facial injuries, believed by psychologists to be an indication that the murderer and victim knew each other. Were the slits to the eyes and the V's pointing to the slits a message that she had seen too much? Kelly was a complete change of MO.

        There is some speculation that the murder weapon was a Liston knife, which is double edged and designed to be used with a stab and cut upwards action.

        We have the choice: Did JtR change his MO as he went along, or was there more than one killer involved?

        Cheers, George
        Last edited by GBinOz; 01-28-2022, 04:52 AM.
        They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
        Out of a misty dream
        Our path emerges for a while, then closes
        Within a dream.
        Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

        ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by GBinOz View Post
          Tabram's injuries were stab wounds. Bagster Phillip's said when he was recalled to Chapman's inquest that medical opinion was that the stomach mutilations in Nicholls case were prior to the throat cutting where as Chapman had her throat cut before the mutilations. At the Chapman inquest the coroner concluded "the injuries have been made by some one who had considerable anatomical skill and knowledge. There are no meaningless cuts". This does not sound like a frenzied attack. At the Stride inquest the coroner concluded "There had been no skilful mutilation as in the cases of Nichols and Chapman, and no unskilful injuries as in the case in Mitre-square - possibly the work of an imitator". Eddows was the first to receive facial injuries, believed by psychologists to be an indication that the murderer and victim knew each other. Were the slits to the eyes and the V's pointing to the slits a message that she had seen too much? Kelly was a complete change of MO.

          There is some speculation that the murder weapon was a Liston knife, which is double edged and designed to be used with a stab and cut upwards action.

          We have the choice: Did JtR change his MO as he went along, or was there more than one killer involved?

          Cheers, George


          ''Eddows was the first to receive facial injuries, believed by psychologists to be an indication that the murderer and victim knew each other. Were the slits to the eyes and the V's pointing to the slits a message that she had seen too much?''

          What could she have known that the killer thought she had seen too much ? if you have some thoughts i keen to hear them, or are you just thinking out loud .?.
          'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post



            ''Eddows was the first to receive facial injuries, believed by psychologists to be an indication that the murderer and victim knew each other. Were the slits to the eyes and the V's pointing to the slits a message that she had seen too much?''

            What could she have known that the killer thought she had seen too much ? if you have some thoughts i keen to hear them, or are you just thinking out loud .?.
            Hi Fishy,

            Eddows had told one of her friends that she knew the identity of JtR and was going to collect the reward for his capture. There was also a report: A young dressmaker identified Deeming as a man with a prominent fair moustache she knew as 'Lawson' who courted her in London at the time of the Ripper murders and who showed an obsessive interest in the details of Eddowes’ murder. Unsubstantiated reports also suggested Deeming had corresponded with Eddowes and had been close to her at one point. She identified Deeming from a photo, and Lawson was one of his known aliases.

            Cheers, George
            They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
            Out of a misty dream
            Our path emerges for a while, then closes
            Within a dream.
            Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

            ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

            Comment


            • #21
              Many thanks George . Very interesting indeed.
              'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post
                Many thanks George . Very interesting indeed.
                Quite an interesting article on Deeming here:
                Frederick Deeming, a bigamist and swindler who spent years roaming the world preying on the innocent and gullible, claimed to be haunted by the ghost of his dead mother.
                They are not long, the days of wine and roses:
                Out of a misty dream
                Our path emerges for a while, then closes
                Within a dream.
                Ernest Dowson - Vitae Summa Brevis​

                ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                Comment


                • #23
                  Good reading George , im also reading reports here on casebook that Deeming was in fact in South Africa at the time of the murders , as far as suspects goes that doesnt bode well for him .
                  'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post



                    ''Eddows was the first to receive facial injuries, believed by psychologists to be an indication that the murderer and victim knew each other. Were the slits to the eyes and the V's pointing to the slits a message that she had seen too much?''

                    What could she have known that the killer thought she had seen too much ? if you have some thoughts i keen to hear them, or are you just thinking out loud .?.
                    There is a simple explantion for Eddowes facial injuries and that is if the killer was behind her and they were both standing up, and the killer was trying to cut her throat and she was trying to avoid the blade her face could have been cut in that way by the movemnt of the knife.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                      There is a simple explantion for Eddowes facial injuries and that is if the killer was behind her and they were both standing up, and the killer was trying to cut her throat and she was trying to avoid the blade her face could have been cut in that way by the movemnt of the knife.

                      www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                      There is , but that aint it.
                      'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by FISHY1118 View Post

                        There is , but that aint it.
                        It is more plausible than the one you suggest but of course there is another if it is accepted that the wounds to her cheeks were in fact specific x`s

                        Click image for larger version

Name:	18.Kate Eddowes Face NEW 1.jpg
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ID:	780129

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                          It is more plausible than the one you suggest but of course there is another if it is accepted that the wounds to her cheeks were in fact specific x`s

                          Click image for larger version

Name:	18.Kate Eddowes Face NEW 1.jpg
Views:	280
Size:	19.9 KB
ID:	780129

                          www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                          I havent suggested anything .......yet.
                          'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                            Why didn’t Killeen mention that there was evidence of strangulation?
                            Good question Mr B.

                            He did not mention it but there seems to be evidence that strangulation could have taken place. The Illustrated Police News on 18 August 1888 reports that Tabram had received severe injuries to the head, the result of "being throttled while held down, and the face and head so swollen and distorted in consequence that her real features are not discernible." Also that Tabram was found on her back, her hands clenched in a repose suggesting strangulation. (thanks Quentin L. Pittman, www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-recanon.html)

                            If this was the case it would seem like strangulation was quite likely. But as you say surely this would have been at least acknowledged at the PM? Strange?
                            Best wishes,

                            Tristan

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                              In my opinon she could have been the first victim as she was stabbed 39 times in a frenzied attack, which is how some of the other victims were attacked also in what I would describe as frenzied attacks.

                              www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                              Hi Trevor,

                              I believe the frenzied nature of the attack is the result of Tabram not being dispatched by the initial strangulation and stabs to the throat. She comes round as it were, the killer panics and goes into a frenzy of stabbing. Hence in later murders he changes his MO from stabbing the throat to slashing it. Once he is sure they are dead he can then carry out the post mortum injuries at leisure.
                              Best wishes,

                              Tristan

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                                It is more plausible than the one you suggest but of course there is another if it is accepted that the wounds to her cheeks were in fact specific x`s

                                Click image for larger version

Name:	18.Kate Eddowes Face NEW 1.jpg
Views:	280
Size:	19.9 KB
ID:	780129

                                www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                                Which is what george was saying , so which do you think?. your unrealistic post 24. Or accepted wounds to her cheeks were deliberate? Or do you require a 3rd go?
                                'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

                                Comment

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