Did JtR change his MO after murdering Martha Tabram

[Trevor Marriott]

I’ve already provided the information - and you should already be aware of it.

Swanson mentions it in a summary of the case; the ELO mentions it in its coverage of the inquest; and even before the inquest the SET quoted Hewitt describing it as ‘revolting’.

How many clues do you need from independent sources?

I take clues from the sources that were at the front line of this murder i.e. Dr Killen who stated that there were 39 stab wounds to the body and neck, including nine to the throat, five in the left lung, two in the right lung, one in the heart, five in the liver, two in the spleen, and six in the stomach, also wounds to her lower abdomen and genitals.

There is no mention of one specific horrific wound to which you refer.

Tabram was murdered and her body mutilated in the same way the later victims would be, so I would suggest she was the first of the victims of JTR. But I also make mention that no attempt was made to remove organs, as would be the case of Nicholls and Stride, and you can also include Mckenzie and Frances Coles in that equation.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FISHY1118]

I take clues from the sources that were at the front line of this murder i.e. Dr Killen who stated that there were 39 stab wounds to the body and neck, including nine to the throat, five in the left lung, two in the right lung, one in the heart, five in the liver, two in the spleen, and six in the stomach, also wounds to her lower abdomen and genitals.

There is no mention of one specific horrific wound to which you refer.

Tabram was murdered and her body mutilated in the same way the later victims would be, so I would suggest she was the first of the victims of JTR. But I also make mention that no attempt was made to remove organs, as would be the case of Nicholls and Stride, and you can also include Mckenzie and Frances Coles in that equation.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Being stabbed 39 times can hardly be called mutilated in th ''same way'' as Mary Jane Kelly was. Ludicrous statement.

[MrBarnett]

I take clues from the sources that were at the front line of this murder i.e. Dr Killen who stated that there were 39 stab wounds to the body and neck, including nine to the throat, five in the left lung, two in the right lung, one in the heart, five in the liver, two in the spleen, and six in the stomach, also wounds to her lower abdomen and genitals.

There is no mention of one specific horrific wound to which you refer.

Tabram was murdered and her body mutilated in the same way the later victims would be, so I would suggest she was the first of the victims of JTR. But I also make mention that no attempt was made to remove organs, as would be the case of Nicholls and Stride, and you can also include Mckenzie and Frances Coles in that equation.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

What sources? Are you quoting newspaper reports - again! How many times do you have to be told they are unsafe, Trevor? :-)

The single wound to her genitals was described as ‘revolting’, not ‘horrific’, because of its location. Where did you get your information that there were multiple wounds to the lower abdomen?

Tabram’s injuries were significantly different from those of the other victims. That’s the whole point of this thread.

[Losmandris]

I take clues from the sources that were at the front line of this murder i.e. Dr Killen who stated that there were 39 stab wounds to the body and neck, including nine to the throat, five in the left lung, two in the right lung, one in the heart, five in the liver, two in the spleen, and six in the stomach, also wounds to her lower abdomen and genitals.

There is no mention of one specific horrific wound to which you refer.

Tabram was murdered and her body mutilated in the same way the later victims would be, so I would suggest she was the first of the victims of JTR. But I also make mention that no attempt was made to remove organs, as would be the case of Nicholls and Stride, and you can also include Mckenzie and Frances Coles in that equation.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I tend to agree with you Trevor in that Tabram has all the hallmarks of being the first victim of JtR. Though I believe he did not get the opportunity to carry out significant PM mutilations as Martha was not properly dispatched with the blow to the head/strangulation attempt and subsequent stabs to the throat. The other stab wounds are undertaken in a panic (possibly with Martha sitting up all of a sudden). I don't buy the two knife theory. I think her lying on her back explains the final killing blow i.e.the floor allowing for the sufficient force needed to pierce the heart and hence the different appearance of the final wound.

[erobitha]

Tom suggests as Gary says that Martha was violated internally in her private parts as well Trevor. Thus providing a sort of continuity from Emma .

From Wikipedia - Piquerism (from the French piquer - "to prick") is a sexual interest in penetrating the skin of another person with sharp objects (such as pins, razors, knives, etc.). Sometimes, this is serious enough to cause extreme injuries or even death.^[1] Piquerism is a paraphilia as well as a form of sadism. The most frequently targeted areas of the body are the breasts, buttocks, and groin.

And - Dr. Robert D. Keppel and his colleagues concluded in an analysis of London's Jack the Ripper murders of 1888 that "the injuries sustained by the victims displayed the signature characteristic of picquerism."

I will stick my neck out and say I found Tom's arguments quite persuasive and certainly changed my outlook on Emma being a victim of the ripper. Plus at the same time strengthening my personal belief that Martha was to.

Regards Darryl

In the case of Tabram picquerism is the most obvious explanation. Except the the C5 were not stabbed. In this cases Keppel relies on the fact he believes stabbing occurred during the post-mortem mutilation. It did not. As I said before cutting and mutilation are very different to frenzied stabbing.

Take from 'Forensic and Medico-legal Aspects of Sexual Crimes and Unusual Sexual Practices' we learn what JtR was...

[MrBarnett]

I tend to agree with you Trevor in that Tabram has all the hallmarks of being the first victim of JtR. Though I believe he did not get the opportunity to carry out significant PM mutilations as Martha was not properly dispatched with the blow to the head/strangulation attempt and subsequent stabs to the throat. The other stab wounds are undertaken in a panic (possibly with Martha sitting up all of a sudden). I don't buy the two knife theory. I think her lying on her back explains the final killing blow i.e.the floor allowing for the sufficient force needed to pierce the heart and hence the different appearance of the final wound.

All the hallmarks? What might they be?

[FISHY1118]

I tend to agree with you Trevor in that Tabram has all the hallmarks of being the first victim of JtR. Though I believe he did not get the opportunity to carry out significant PM mutilations as Martha was not properly dispatched with the blow to the head/strangulation attempt and subsequent stabs to the throat. The other stab wounds are undertaken in a panic (possibly with Martha sitting up all of a sudden). I don't buy the two knife theory. I think her lying on her back explains the final killing blow i.e.the floor allowing for the sufficient force needed to pierce the heart and hence the different appearance of the final wound.

Really? His opportunity was always there , if he had cut her throat and stabbed her in the heart once , he just might have had the time for mutilation, instead of piss farting around with the 38 other stab wounds , sorry but tabram was not his first victim in my opinion.

[Mark J D]

... sorry but tabram was not his first victim in my opinion.

Criminologist David Wilson has been quite prominent in recent years; I remember three or four years back he was in a JtR documentary fronted by a woman who was in some kind of forensic science series I never watched. I'm pretty sure he included Tabram: maybe someone has the programme recorded and can tell us if he adduced a good reason?

M.

[Losmandris]

All the hallmarks? What might they be?

Similar victim type, similar location, Similar vicinity, similar weapon, similar attack i.e. no noise. I just don't see a massive leap from stabbing to cutting. This is a murderer finding his feet as it were. He evolves over time.

[Trevor Marriott]

What sources? Are you quoting newspaper reports - again! How many times do you have to be told they are unsafe, Trevor? :-)

The single wound to her genitals was described as ‘revolting’, not ‘horrific’, because of its location. Where did you get your information that there were multiple wounds to the lower abdomen?

Tabram’s injuries were significantly different from those of the other victims. That’s the whole point of this thread.

Eddowes was stabbed a number of times to the abdomen through her outer clothing.
Chapman also had body mutilations consistent with being stabbed

Thats good enough to suggest a common link

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Losmandris]

Really? His opportunity was always there , if he had cut her throat and stabbed her in the heart once , he just might have had the time for mutilation, instead of piss farting around with the 38 other stab wounds , sorry but tabram was not his first victim in my opinion.

Maybe he thought stabbing the throat would have been just as effective. How would he know if this was his first murder? And didn't have much experience using knives? To me this someone deciding this is what he will do and trying it for the first time. Things don't go according to plan, actually killing someone is not as easy as he thinks. She doesn't die as he is expecting she would. He panics and ends up panicking and stabbing her 39 times. He goes back to the drawing board and tries again with Nichols. A little better this time but still not as effective as he wants. Over time he gets more effective in my eyes.

[MrBarnett]

Eddowes was stabbed a number of times to the abdomen through her outer clothing.
Chapman also had body mutilations consistent with being stabbed

Thats good enough to suggest a common link

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

There are only two kinds of injuries that can be caused by a knife, incised (cuts) and punctured (stabs). So by your logic every knife attack on a woman in Whitechapel is likely to have been carried out by the Ripper. And therefore you presumably believe the blind man who stabbed his guide was the Ripper.

You didn’t answer my main question, where did you get your information that there were multiple injuries to Tabram’s lower abdomen?

[MrBarnett]

Similar victim type, similar location, Similar vicinity, similar weapon, similar attack i.e. no noise. I just don't see a massive leap from stabbing to cutting. This is a murderer finding his feet as it were. He evolves over time.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on that, I see a world of difference between an attacker repeatedly stabbing someone and an attacker cutting his victim’s throat and then opening up their body cavity and ferreting about amongst their innards.

[MrBarnett]

Maybe he thought stabbing the throat would have been just as effective. How would he know if this was his first murder? And didn't have much experience using knives? To me this someone deciding this is what he will do and trying it for the first time. Things don't go according to plan, actually killing someone is not as easy as he thinks. She doesn't die as he is expecting she would. He panics and ends up panicking and stabbing her 39 times. He goes back to the drawing board and tries again with Nichols. A little better this time but still not as effective as he wants. Over time he gets more effective in my eyes.

Was he lucky with his final thrust that penetrated her heart? Or did he know all along where best to stab to cause instant death?

If he’d had bayonet training, he’d probably have known the most efficient way to despatch someone.

(Did I mention my blind wood carver was an ex-soldier who had been court-martialled in India, sentenced to 5 years imprisonment and discharged with ignominy before he wound up living alongside Pearly Poll in NE Oasssge:-))

[FISHY1118]

Maybe he thought stabbing the throat would have been just as effective. How would he know if this was his first murder? And didn't have much experience using knives? To me this someone deciding this is what he will do and trying it for the first time. Things don't go according to plan, actually killing someone is not as easy as he thinks. She doesn't die as he is expecting she would. He panics and ends up panicking and stabbing her 39 times. He goes back to the drawing board and tries again with Nichols. A little better this time but still not as effective as he wants. Over time he gets more effective in my eyes.

Thanks Tristan, But im afaide from Tabram to what he did to Mary Jane Kelly with a ""knife"" in just a short time , whole different ball game if you ask me. Regards .