Did JtR change his MO after murdering Martha Tabram

[Abby Normal]

I am not a physician Abby but I wonder if Dr Killeen could tell that Martha was still alive while Jack inflicted all 38 wounds before the one on the heart. Would that be possible today? never mind 1888 .
Was he taken out of context at the inquest ? Not sure, but it does seem a strange statement to make .

From the ELO Aug 11 - Dr. Keeling then described where the wounds had been made, and in answer to questions stated positively that there were no signs of there having been recent connexion. In his opinion the wounds were caused by a knife, or some such instrument, but there was a wound on the chest bone which could not have been caused by a knife. An ordinary penknife could have made most of the wounds, but the puncture in the chest must have been made with a sword bayonet or a dagger. The wounds, he was of the opinion, were inflicted during life, and it was impossible for them all to have been self-inflicted, though some of them might have been. Then in reply to questions from the coroner as to whether he could tell whether the wounds were made by a right or left-handed person, the doctor said one of the wounds might have been made by a left-handed man, but not the others.

All three [ in bold ], of the above seem a little odd to me.
For instance how could he tell that the wounds to the lungs were caused by a right handed man if just a penknife was used ?
Plus no one heard a noise , cry , anything.

Regards Darryl

agree. whats all this self inflicted stuff? lol. i think if two knives were used he used the clasp knife first and then switched to a larger knife for the stab to the heart.

i see it like this:
the ripper was originally accustomed to carrying around the smaller clasp knife. his first named victim was millwood whom he attacked with the smaller clasp knife. she survived, so next time out he brought a larger knife, but in the heat of tje moment used tje smaller knife to attack tabram, and switched to tje larger knife for the heart stab and cut to privates. he succeeded in killing tabram, but this too was somewhat botched. then pretty much perfected his technique with nichols.

the cut to the privates of Tabram and the lifted skirt seal it for me it was the ripper. and millwood, tabram and nichols murders fits a logical narrative of serial killer escalation.

[MrBarnett]

agree. whats all this self inflicted stuff? lol. i think if two knives were used he used the clasp knife first and then switched to a larger knife for the stab to the heart.

i see it like this:
the ripper was originally accustomed to carrying around the smaller clasp knife. his first named victim was millwood whom he attacked with the smaller clasp knife. she survived, so next time out he brought a larger knife, but in the heat of tje moment used tje smaller knife to attack tabram, and switched to tje larger knife for the heart stab and cut to privates. he succeeded in killing tabram, but this too was somewhat botched. then pretty much perfected his technique with nichols.

the cut to the privates of Tabram and the lifted skirt seal it for me it was the ripper. and millwood, tabram and nichols murders fits a logical narrative of serial killer escalation.

Hi Abby,

In the case of a violent death, one of the things a Coroner has to establish is whether it was a suicide. Medical witnesses will be asked (and will be expected answer) questions to establish whether it might have been.


Gary

[MrBarnett]

To be completely transparent about this, I have always questioned whether Killeen had the necessary PM experience to give reliable opinions on Tabram.

[Darryl Kenyon]

But he didn’t learn how to cut a throat on the GYB landing, did he? He learned that plunging a dagger into someone’s heart killed them almost instantly.

But isn't that the point Gary ? He throttled Martha [ clenched fists, two witnesses ], she possibly struggled [ the blow on the back of the head ] and he went into a frenzy to make sure she was dead. Next time after strangulation , cut the throat, that way poor Polly is definitely killed before he can plunge his , perhaps longer and sharper knife into her.
Regards Darryl

[MrBarnett]

But isn't that the point Gary ? He throttled Martha [ clenched fists, two witnesses ], she possibly struggled [ the blow on the back of the head ] and he went into a frenzy to make sure she was dead. Next time after strangulation , cut the throat, that way poor Polly is definitely killed before he can plunge his , perhaps longer and sharper knife into her.
Regards Darryl

So, he learned how difficult it was to kill someone by throttling them, hitting them or stabbing them with a small knife and discovered that stabbing them with a dagger thrust to the heart was the way to go but thought he’d ring the changes next time and try a method he’d never employed before?

Anything’s possible, I suppose. It’s also possible that these two very different attacks were by two different assailants.

[Trevor Marriott]

What constitutes the mutilation in the Stride and Coles cases?

You have spotted my mistake, Stride in my opinion was not a ripper victim, and Coles clearly has to be considered as one despite no body mutilations bearing in mind my suspect Carl Feigenbaum who can be proven to have been in London on a ship on the date of Coles murder.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[MrBarnett]

You have spotted my mistake, Stride in my opinion was not a ripper victim, and Coles clearly has to be considered as one despite no body mutilations bearing in mind my suspect Carl Feigenbaum who can be proven to have been in London on a ship on the date of Coles murder.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

And both the pre-mortem frenzied attack on Tabram and the clinical post-mortem dissection of Kelly come under the same heading of mutilation in your eyes?

[Trevor Marriott]

And both the pre-mortem frenzied attack on Tabram and the clinical post-mortem dissection of Kelly come under the same heading of mutilation in your eyes?

Certainly Tabram. no one can say that she was not subjected to a frenzied attack.

The mutilation of Kelly speaks for itself. there is no evidence of a clinical dissection on kelly, and certainly no evidence of her killer having any anatomical knowledge. We have no means of telling whether or not she was initially the subject of a frenzied attack

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[MrBarnett]

Certainly Tabram. no one can say that she was not subjected to a frenzied attack.

The mutilation of Kelly speaks for itself. there is no evidence of a clinical dissection on kelly, and certainly no evidence of her killer having any anatomical knowledge.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Lets say, Trevor, for the sake of argument, that the knife attack by the blind man in Spitalfields had resulted in his victim’s death.

Imagine three corpses, Tabram, Kelly and the unknown. Kelly carved to pieces and the other two with bruises from blows and multiple stab wounds. Would you assume that because all three had been murdered and mutilated (by your definition) they had all been killed by the same person?

[MrBarnett]

Lets say, Trevor, for the sake of argument, that the knife attack by the blind man in Spitalfields had resulted in his victim’s death.

Imagine three corpses, Tabram, Kelly and the unknown. Kelly carved to pieces and the other two with bruises from blows and multiple stab wounds. Would you assume that because all three had been murdered and mutilated (by your definition) they had all been killed by the same person?

Hold the front page, folks, I think me and Trev may have just solved the case.:-)

[Mark J D]

Hold the front page, folks, I think me and Trev may have just solved the case.:-)

I've found the 2019 documentary in which an actress who plays a clever investigator on TV and a guy I wouldn't trust an inch get a police computer system hahahahaha to tell them if Tabram should be added to the C5...

Jump to 32'58"...

Jack the Ripper The Case Reopened (2019) Documentary - video Dailymotion

M.

[Trevor Marriott]

Lets say, Trevor, for the sake of argument, that the knife attack by the blind man in Spitalfields had resulted in his victim’s death.

Imagine three corpses, Tabram, Kelly and the unknown. Kelly carved to pieces and the other two with bruises from blows and multiple stab wounds. Would you assume that because all three had been murdered and mutilated (by your definition) they had all been killed by the same person?

Its a fact that should not be ignored, but on the other hand would you suggest that the murders of Eddowes and Chapman were commited by another because they were the only two victims that were missing organs. In reality each individual murder should be carefully looked at in detail as to looking for a common denominator and in the case of the majority of these murders that common denominator is simply murder and mutilation, if you then dismiss the sugestion that the killer removed the organs then Chapaman and eddowes are linked to the other murders by reason of murder and mutilation

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

And both the pre-mortem frenzied attack on Tabram and the clinical post-mortem dissection of Kelly come under the same heading of mutilation in your eyes?

If they were commited by the same killer yes, and there was no clinical dissection of Kelly her organs wetre simply cut/torn out and no anatomical knowledge shown, which shows that if she was killed by the same killer as the the other victims shows that the organs of Eddowes and Chapman could not have been removed by the killer at the crime scenebecause if it were the same killer he had the time and the opportunity to remove all the vitals organs from Kelly with the anatomical knowledge he is alleged to have shown in removing the organs from Chapman and Eddowes.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Losmandris]

But isn't that the point Gary ? He throttled Martha [ clenched fists, two witnesses ], she possibly struggled [ the blow on the back of the head ] and he went into a frenzy to make sure she was dead. Next time after strangulation , cut the throat, that way poor Polly is definitely killed before he can plunge his , perhaps longer and sharper knife into her.
Regards Darryl

This is exactly as I see it Darryl. This is the first time for the murderer. Things don't go as expected. So he needs to change things for next time.

[Losmandris]

So, he learned how difficult it was to kill someone by throttling them, hitting them or stabbing them with a small knife and discovered that stabbing them with a dagger thrust to the heart was the way to go but thought he’d ring the changes next time and try a method he’d never employed before?

Anything’s possible, I suppose. It’s also possible that these two very different attacks were by two different assailants.

I think he decides the slash to the throat is best way to go after Tabram. He clearly wanted to dispatch her straight away but the stabs to the throat following either some kind of strangulation attempt or blow to the head did not do the job. I think Tabram is killed by all the other stabs. The one to the heart is a coup de grace for him to make sure. It clearly took a lot of effort. Hence not being repeated in subsequent murders.