Did JtR change his MO after murdering Martha Tabram

[MrBarnett]

The claim that Tabram was seen with soldiers on the Sunday was a case of mistaken identity, wasn’t it?

[MrBarnett]

The claim that Tabram was seen with soldiers on the Sunday was a case of mistaken identity, wasn’t it?

Before Tabram was identified it was thought that the victim might be a woman named Mary Withers, and it was she who had been seen in the company of a guardsman on the Sunday.

[MrBarnett]

After the body had been removed, and Killeen, Barrett and any other police officers had departed, who was left to answer the inevitable questions asked by curious residents, locals and journalists? Francis Hewitt. The story that initially spread from GYB into the wider East End would have been Hewitt’s take on events.

And what did he actually know? He seen the body in situ and observed the wounds; he’d quite likely overheard Barrett mention that he’d seen a soldier nearby and Killeen opine on the nature of the wounds.

[Varqm]

If you walk Lechmere's likely southern route to work (weekdays) and back to his house (post-Eddowes), it is very strikingly apparent that Tabram's murder was as close to Wentworth Street (outbound) as were the Goulston Street apron and graffito (return)...

M.

I think coming from Commercial Road to Commercial Street or even vice versa was more like it or likely.The simplest route too.
I think he escaped to the City area after Stride but happened upon Eddowes who was just released, hence the only double event.

[FISHY1118]

Hi Fishy

It will be noted that the fury of the mutilations increased in each case, and, seemingly, the appetite only became sharpened by indulgence. It seems, then, highly improbable that the murderer would have suddenly stopped in November '88, and been content to recommence operations by merely prodding a girl behind some 2 years and 4 months afterwards. A much more rational theory is that the murderer's brain gave way altogether after his awful glut in Miller's Court, and that he immediately committed suicide.

If Macnaghten included Martha, his personal opinion that the murderers appetite and the fury of the mutilations increased with each murder until his brain gave way would not hold up. So in my opinion that may be one of the reasons he favoured the soldier theory.

Regards Darryl

Thanks Darryl

[Losmandris]

After the body had been removed, and Killeen, Barrett and any other police officers had departed, who was left to answer the inevitable questions asked by curious residents, locals and journalists? Francis Hewitt. The story that initially spread from GYB into the wider East End would have been Hewitt’s take on events.

And what did he actually know? He seen the body in situ and observed the wounds; he’d quite likely overheard Barrett mention that he’d seen a soldier nearby and Killeen opine on the nature of the wounds.

Hi Mr B

Thanks for raising this. I knew I wasn't going daft questioning the veracity of the soldier story. There maybe something in it but it is far from cast iron. To me it seems to be a bit of a Chinese whisper that started to take on a life of its own. Only to go on to be canon. I think it needs to be taken with a serious pinch of salt.

[Aethelwulf]

If you walk Lechmere's likely southern route to work (weekdays) and back to his house (post-Eddowes), it is very strikingly apparent that Tabram's murder was as close to Wentworth Street (outbound) as were the Goulston Street apron and graffito (return)...

M.

This is a good map and well done to whoever produced it. However, the major issue is that there are no known behaviours that link Lechmere to any of these crime scenes. For example, there is no evidence that Lechmere has form for: blows to the head, strangulation, murder and mutilation with a knife, use of prostitutes etc. I know you will disagree strongly, fair enough, but I don't see how Lech can go any further without some concrete behaviour linking him to these crimes.

[Kattrup]

I’m not sure that Killeen ever offered the opinion that a bayonet had been used. He spoke of ‘some kind of a dagger’.

Hi Gary, at the inquest Killeen suggested "The large wound could be caused by a sword bayonet or dagger."
As reported August 10th and later dates in several papers covering the inquest.

Another circumstance that lent colour to the idea of a soldier being implicated was the evidence of Dr. Keeling [Killeen], who said that one of the most serious stabs received by the woman had been in all probability given with a sword bayonet.

[MrBarnett]

Thanks, Kattrup. I may be wrong but I get the impression that Killeen was responding to the question of whether the wound could have been caused by a sword bayonet rather than offering that opinion himself.

One of the annoying things about the reporting of inquests and criminal trials is that although the responses to questions were recorded, the questions themselves often weren’t.

[Abby Normal]

the ripper could have been one of the soldiers Tabram was with. or perhaps an ex soldier wearing a uniform. it dosnt have to be mutually exclusive.
Ive never really understood why people say...no she wasnt a ripper victim, she was probably killed by a soldier.

and all the evidence points to she was killed by the ripper, soldier or not.

[Aethelwulf]

the ripper could have been one of the soldiers Tabram was with. or perhaps an ex soldier wearing a uniform. it dosnt have to be mutually exclusive.
Ive never really understood why people say...no she wasnt a ripper victim, she was probably killed by a soldier.

and all the evidence points to she was killed by the ripper, soldier or not.

There is also one and half hours between:

2:00 AM: PC Thomas Barrett saw a young Grenadier Guardsman in Wentworth Street, the north end of George Yard. Barrett questioned his reason for being there and was told by the Guardsman that he was waiting for a "chum who went off with a girl."

and

3:30 AM: Alfred Crow returned to his lodging in George Yard Buildings and noticed what he thought was a homeless person sleeping on the first floor landing. As this was not an uncommon occurrence he continued on to bed.

So there is easily enough time for the soldiers to be irrelevant. PP and MT were out looking for customers so could easily have found others after the soldiers.

[Abby Normal]

There is also one and half hours between:

2:00 AM: PC Thomas Barrett saw a young Grenadier Guardsman in Wentworth Street, the north end of George Yard. Barrett questioned his reason for being there and was told by the Guardsman that he was waiting for a "chum who went off with a girl."

and

3:30 AM: Alfred Crow returned to his lodging in George Yard Buildings and noticed what he thought was a homeless person sleeping on the first floor landing. As this was not an uncommon occurrence he continued on to bed.

So there is easily enough time for the soldiers to be irrelevant. PP and MT were out looking for customers so could easily have found others after the soldiers.

agree. but PP and MT seems to have gone there seperate ways after their fling with the soldiers, so if MT ran into the ripper after that, she was probably alone.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Did JtR change his MO after murdering Martha Tabram?

Peter Sutcliffe (Yorkshire Ripper) strangled to death some of his victims and stabbed to death others. His first attack involved a sock filled with rocks as opposed to a hammer which became more common. In the event Sutcliffe hadn't been apprehended, those arguing the MO doesn't change would not have placed all of his victims at his door.

Those types of murders are highly unusual, and it would have been extremely unusual for two men or more to be at liberty in West Yorkshire murdering women unknown to them.

Here we have an empirical study of the behaviour of serial killers. The conclusion states the crime scene conduct of this group of offenders is fairly complex and varied.

Ritual and Signature in Serial Sexual Homicide | Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law (jaapl.org)

Notwithstanding numerous anecdotal case reports, ritual and signature have rarely been studied empirically. In a national sample of 38 offenders and their 162 victims, we examined behavioral and thematic consistency, as well as the evolution and uniqueness of these crime scene actions. The notion that serial sexual murderers engage in the same rituals and leave unique signatures at every scene was not supported by our data. In fact, the results suggest that the crime scene conduct of this group of offenders is fairly complex and varied.

It's worth mentioning that the murder of women in the circumstances of those attributed to the WM, was extremely rare in Victorian London. They occurred in a narrow geographic area. The prospect of two or more men running around murdering women in similar circumstances in this narrow geographic area and at broadly the same time, is a slim one.

On balance, I would say the WM murdered more than five women and I'd include Martha as one of them.

[Losmandris]

the ripper could have been one of the soldiers Tabram was with. or perhaps an ex soldier wearing a uniform. it dosnt have to be mutually exclusive.
Ive never really understood why people say...no she wasnt a ripper victim, she was probably killed by a soldier.

and all the evidence points to she was killed by the ripper, soldier or not.

Apart from what comes from Poll has it be firmly established that she was in fact with a soldier on the night of the murder?

[Losmandris]

There is also one and half hours between:

2:00 AM: PC Thomas Barrett saw a young Grenadier Guardsman in Wentworth Street, the north end of George Yard. Barrett questioned his reason for being there and was told by the Guardsman that he was waiting for a "chum who went off with a girl."

and

3:30 AM: Alfred Crow returned to his lodging in George Yard Buildings and noticed what he thought was a homeless person sleeping on the first floor landing. As this was not an uncommon occurrence he continued on to bed.

So there is easily enough time for the soldiers to be irrelevant. PP and MT were out looking for customers so could easily have found others after the soldiers.

This is what I question. Barrett did not see Martha just the guardsman. It was more than likely that this was someone else as you rightly mention because of the time difference. So much can happen in 90 minutes.