Ripper Victim?

[Shelley]

There is no such thing as the cannon. It is a modern invention. You mean the McNaughten 5...

And Swanson says Tabram's throat was cut suggesting information was held back from the press. A bodice would have been integral to the design of the dress. Most experts as far as I'm aware include Tabram as did Swanson.

Pirate

PS Michael...thats unfair loads of Ducks

Pirate Jack,

Yes, i am aware that the cannon is a more modern term, but it has been described as that for more than 5 years though, so that would be my meaning of Tabram was left out of the cannon by some experts for years. Also i am not aware of Swanson's report about cutting of the neck on Tabram, as others have said stabbings to the neck of Tabram, but by my notes Tabram has 21 stab wounds all around the upper half of the body, although i do have a note on 39 stabs in total, but my notes do not say where these other stab wounds are, which would be totalling 18 stabs that my notes do not account for. killeen himself stated that death of Tabram was due to loss of blood, Fisherman tells me that Killeen says that the wound to the heart alone was capable of causing death. I admit i have never heard of Tabrams neck being cut, i'm sure that this would have been mentioned by Dr Killeeen.

[Fisherman]

Shelley writes:

"One thing we can be sure about, Tabrams heart wasn't stabbed first."

Agreed, Shelley!

The best,
Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

There is no such thing as the cannon. It is a modern invention. You mean the McNaughten 5...

And Swanson says Tabram's throat was cut suggesting information was held back from the press. A bodice would have been integral to the design of the dress. Most experts as far as I'm aware include Tabram as did Swanson.

Jeff,

Where does Swanson say that Tabram's throat was cut? Source, please.

As for 'most experts'... if you're talking about prominent Ripper researchers, I know a couple who certainly does not include her - according to their personal opinion.

All the best

[robhouse]

How can we be sure Tabram wasnt stabbed in the heart first? Just curious.

Rob House

[Shelley]

There is no such thing as the cannon. It is a modern invention. You mean the McNaughten 5...

And Swanson says Tabram's throat was cut suggesting information was held back from the press. A bodice would have been integral to the design of the dress. Most experts as far as I'm aware include Tabram as did Swanson.

Pirate

PS Michael...thats unfair loads of Ducks

Where does Swanson record this throat-Cutting on Tabram Pirate jack?
Also, about the bodice ( victorian corset) Tabram is not listed as having one, where is it that it's written by designers as, an integral design to the dress? I've never heard of this anywhere, corsets were different and worn under the dress it's self.....A bustle was an integral design of most dresses, still some were separated and sewn on.

[Shelley]

How can we be sure Tabram wasnt stabbed in the heart first? Just curious.

Rob House

Hi Robhouse,

The heart still pumps the blood around the body, Tabram was lying in a pool of blood, if the wound to the heart had caused death straight away, there wouldn't be a pool of blood, perhaps some spurting. In any case if Tabram had been dead before stabbing occurred, they would be classed as post-mortem wounds.....Still, some people do not seem to realise this.
Hope it helps
All the best
Shelley

[Sam Flynn]

To me, Tabram represents the perfect predecessor to Nicholls: The hesitating cut to the abdomen

We don't know enough about it, Fish - neither whether it was hesitant, whether it was actually in the abdomen (as opposed to the crease of the thigh, say), nor even that it was a cut.

probably interrupted

Probably? It's a possibility, no more - and a remote one, at best.

the ignorance about the practicality of silencing his victims

That narrows our search down to the only man in England who didn't know that cutting someone's throat quickly was a good way to silence someone. A man so adaptable, however, that he cottoned onto the idea of deep throat-cutting within three weeks and took up "flesh carving" in preference to perforating his victims to death.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Keppel is an expert on serial crime, and you mention his inclusion of Kelly as though it were a bad thing, despite the fact that no other expert in serial crime has argued for her exclusion either - the total reverse, in fact.

Both crime scene analyst Paul Britton in England and former FBI profiler Robert Ressler have made statements where they consider the idea that it might not have been a Ripper crime.

But of course, since you only quote those 'experts' who support your own personal agenda, one couldn't expect you to know this.

Anyhow, this is not a kelly thread.

All the best

[robhouse]

Thanks Shelley, that makes sense.

RH

[Sam Flynn]

The heart still pumps the blood around the body, Tabram was lying in a pool of blood, if the wound to the heart had caused death straight away, there wouldn't be a pool of blood, perhaps some spurting.

Well, the blood could well have oozed out over time, Shelley - Tabram had probably lain there for over two hours before her body was discovered. I guess the best indicator that the heart might not have been stabbed first was the fact that Killeen details only "some" blood in the pericardium, and doesn't note whether there was any significant blood in the chest cavity - both of which I'd have expected more if the heart had been punctured first. However, this doesn't constitute definitive proof - merely a tentative suggestion that this might have been the case, in full awareness that we don't have Killeen's last word on this. It's not even as if posterity has blessed us to the extent of preserving the detail provided by Drs Bond and Brown.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

To me, Tabram represents the perfect predecessor to Nicholls: The hesitating cut to the abdomen...

Oh come on! Give me a break.

Probably interrupted...

No evidence of that at all in Tabram's case.

the ignorance about the practicality of silencing his victims

Se Garteh's/Sam Flynn's excellent, non-nonsense reply.

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

Which is another thing, i can recall Sam was always quick to mention in posts to me to not run off Topic whilst i spoke of Eddowes in posts on these threads....However, Ben gallops around mentioning left right and centre other killers that have nothing to do with this thread, he is not pulled up once

I dare say that illustrating points about serial killers changing their methods (or whatever) might be relevant to this topic, Shelley - whereas your thought-provoking speculation on Eddowes was firmly in Eddowes territory, and would have been better placed on a thread devoted to the latter.

I'm painfully aware how rapidly these discussions can turn into a multi-suspect/multi-victim bunfight at the slightest opportunity. Luckily, Arthur Shawcross isn't on the suspect list for this murder, and neither was he Martha Tabram herself - despite the fact that he, like her, had a pot-belly and a face like two faggots in a handkerchief.

[Shelley]

Well, the blood could well have oozed out over time, Shelley - Tabram had probably lain there for over two hours before her body was discovered. I guess the best indicator that the heart might not have been stabbed first was the fact that Killeen details only "some" blood in the pericardium, and doesn't note whether there was any significant blood in the chest cavity - both of which I'd have expected more if the heart had been punctured first. However, this doesn't constitute definitive proof - merely a tentative suggestion that this might have been the case, in full awareness that we don't have Killeen's last word on this. It's not even as if posterity has blessed us to the extent of preserving the detail provided by Drs Bond and Brown.

Sam,
That's a thorough description of the heart cavities ( pericardium), however blood can't ooze out over time as soon as death occurs ( the wound to the heart was alone enough to kill her) the blood starts to clot. Coagulation, so not much for the stance of the pool of blood and oozing out over time Sam.

[Shelley]

I dare say that illustrating points about serial killers changing their methods (or whatever) might be relevant to this topic, Shelley - whereas your thought-provoking speculation on Eddowes was firmly in Eddowes territory, and would have been better placed on a thread devoted to the latter.

I'm painfully aware how rapidly these discussions can turn into a multi-suspect/multi-victim bunfight at the slightest opportunity. Luckily, Arthur Shawcross isn't on the suspect list for this murder, and neither was he Martha Tabram herself - despite the fact that he, like her, had a pot-belly and a face like two faggots in a handkerchief.

Sam,
With all due respect i don't see how bringing up serial killers that use a gun then a knife then swop again to a gun is in anyway significant to that of JTR, JTR always used a knife to my knowledge, yes, and granted the killer of Tabram also used a knife, and a gun never did come into the equasion of Tabram either, a knife is what killed them and this was used to perbetrate the crime. I would think it far more suitable to see about any change of MO and signature on Eddowes in comparison to that of Tabram!
The fact remains that MO change from a knife to a gun is ridiculous to bring up in the first instance, it was also not a gun that killed these women mentioned. Also i don't consider that Eddowes is in any way not to have some mention on this thread, especially when you have one such as Keppel also being mentioned who can't see that organ harvesting of particular organs can relate to a killers mind and what he fantasises about in his mutilations, a brief overview and somewhat neglected on behalf of Keppel, without using other victims such as Eddowes, one cannot have good arguments in relation to the victims of JTR Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

I would think it far more suitable to see about any change of MO and signature on Eddowes in comparison to that of Tabram!

Eddowes was some way "down-stream" from Tabram, Shelley. The excuses being made for the transition from Tabram to Nichols are feeble enough - and the latter didn't even have her intestines pulled out or her face mutilated.

Also i don't consider that Eddowes is in any way not to have some mention on this thread

It was the extent of your comments on Eddowes - and the possible "forks" in the discussion that they could easily have generated - that made them firmly "different thread" material, as I recall.

Trust me, I try to comment only when there's good reason, and I don't victimise! (I've also never shied from taking a playful pop at Ben for his serial killerisms on occasion, and if appropriate, so you may rest assured that it's nothing personal.)