Ripper Victim?

[Jeff Leahy]

Pirate,

You missed the point in my reply, rather than re-do it, when you can review it again mate.

And for me anyway, there is surface similarity in at least the general looks of Martha Tabram and Annie Chapman based on the morgue photos, and I dont see Mary Ann Nichols being that much different. They are similarly situated in life style and means, and none were skinny.

I think raising the fact that Martha is not an entirely different kind of woman,.... she is roughly the same size and shape and age as early Canonicals, and that she is killed on a Holiday are 2 viable points that favor the profile of an actual Ripper crime. There are several signatures missing however, and it seems to me illogical that they evolved to the state that they were present in 3 of the next four deaths after Martha in 3 unpracticed weeks...without an intermediate step. If he was capable of beginning his "career" with the signatures and actions he shows in Pollys murder, then theres no need to explain why that evolution seems dramatic, in style at least. But theres some reason to wonder why he wouldnt have had some seemingly important characteristics present in an earlier kill.

I personally feel that one of the keys to a genuine Ripper crime is that he causes his victims to lose consciousness before he uses a knife...which would imply he doesnt even have one in his hands at the time as they are likely both busy cutting off the womans air somehow. Which means he attacks first with his hands or some kind of ligature....some method of airway restriction is used.

There is no indication that in the case of Martha Tabram that her killer started the attack with anything other than the knife, nor that she was in any way semi or unconscious at any point throughout the stabbing frenzy. The only canonical that has that element incorporated is Mary Kellys murder...she was attacked with a knife while still conscious and able to resist somewhat. And it seems to also be absent in Liz Strides murder..as she may have been cut while falling, which would mean he already had the knife in his hand while he was choking her with the scarf.

Best regards all.

well I must agree and disagree. Jack simply took what was available. I've never said that he choose a specific look or type. First come first serve was jacks moto.

However I must disagree about strangulation. LOOK AT THE PHOTO. Martha's tongue is sticking out. It is obvious that she was strangled before being attacked. The fact that there are few records recording the details is simply because she was an early victim. And Victim she was.

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

For heaven's sake, Jeff.

This has been said so many times and now we have to go through it again?
Once more: forget Pearly Poll! her story may or may not have been true. But her story is not important for the soldier aspect.
The importance lie in the soldier described by PC Barrett, found waiting in the vicinity of the crime scene at the right time for the murder to occur (saying his pal had "gone off with a girl")!
THAT is the soldier connection - not Pearly Poll.

And of course, as a PC we have a much more credible witness in Barrett than in Pearly Poll (who was a very reluctant and probably scared witness), although he never managed to identify the man.
Good Lord. It's all there in the witness statements! All you have to do is read.

All the best

Ah Glenn me old nemesis how are you?..I will be there at conferance to flick your ears and ponce a pint, again...

However, you know as well as i do that the PC's soldier dosn't fit Pearli Polls Soldier...different rank and probably different batallion.

Plus, the timing is still out by over an hour and we know that there were loads of soldiers from different batallions all over London getting there end away on that night. And still not one, not one, witness to support Pearli Poll, dispite the fact that the police checked this story for weeks. probably in every bar and pub...

There were no soldiers...just Jack the Ripper

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

Nah, Jeff - I take a leaf out of my dad's book. When I was a kid, he'd always lob in a few obscure words into a conversation, to get me to look them up in a dictionary.

Anyway, it was only one word - and you could get the gist of what "prosopagnosia" meant by reading the rest of the sentence. I do try to help

Oh, there was also "wiggy-wags", a colloquial South Wales term for head lice.

Whats Dew-laps and Nasha-thon??

Ps Dont you mean Theosaurus? I think thats Hinton in-need of territory

[Chava]

Ditto the vagina, the fallopian tubes, the uterus and ovaries in women.

Gareth my love, I know you like the last word but this is ridiculous. The word 'genitals' means 'stuff that you use to have children'. Women don't have any external genitalia. Men do. They have a penis. Which, if you recall your 3rd form sex ed class, is inserted into a woman's vagina. Which is internal. The whole shebang is internal except for the helpful but not generation-necessary clitoris. You have external genitalia, we have internal genitalia. Have you got it straight now?

[Sam Flynn]

Gareth my love, I know you like the last word but this is ridiculous

No it isn't.

Women don't have any external genitalia.

Yes they do, and "genitals" is usually used to refer to them.



Your mileage may vary.

[Roy Corduroy]

Whats Dew-laps and Nasha-thon??

Hi Jeff, Dewlaps is those jowls on a hound dog.

A Nasha-thon, that's a buncha Russian chicks in a race. No wait, that's a Natasha- thon.

Roy

[perrymason]

Im not sure on how you formed your opinion Pirate...on one hand you tell Glenn that the soldier seen by the PC was not the rank or possibly battalion that was mentioned in Pearly Polls statements, and on the other you seem to suggest that her account shouldnt be believed because no-one corroborated it.

Poll did identify a man at the arranged suspect parade, Im sure you know that....and she changed her mind based on the soldiers rank. If she was making it up, she was at least consistent.

To make a determination that this murder was by Jack when contemporary investigators disagree and any evidence that is available suggests different signatures, different use of a knife, and a lack of self control... is a bold move on your part.....and in my opinion, completely without supporting evidence beyond the victims occupation and her age.

But no-one has said that opinions have to have foundation in fact here...as evidenced by many other comments, so yours is no more baseless than some others offered.

Best regards

[Chava]

OK Gareth, I'll accept that. Now what bit of the genital organs of a woman's body is external? Note that the labia are simply skin folds.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Ah Glenn me old nemesis how are you?..I will be there at conferance to flick your ears and ponce a pint, again...

However, you know as well as i do that the PC's soldier dosn't fit Pearli Polls Soldier...different rank and probably different batallion.

Plus, the timing is still out by over an hour and we know that there were loads of soldiers from different batallions all over London getting there end away on that night. And still not one, not one, witness to support Pearli Poll, dispite the fact that the police checked this story for weeks. probably in every bar and pub...

There were no soldiers...just Jack the Ripper

Pirate

Oh my God, Jeff. Jeff, Jeff, Jeff.
I'll say it again: FORGET PEARLY POLL!
I am talking about PC Barrett!
I have never ever tried to use PC Barrett's soldier as support for the ones mentioned by Pearly Poll. Never.
Pearlu Poll's story could be valid as a support for her and Martha favouring sodiers in general as customers (which wouldn't be strange since they would be cleaner, nicer looking and have more money than the women's average local customers). But that's all.

The thing that links PC Barrett's soldier (or rather, possibly his friend) to the crime scene is that he actually was found there at the right time and that his pal according to him had gone off with a girl. The interesting part of Barrett's encounter with this soldier is that he is there and at the right time for the murder to occur. Which means we can actually put a customer on the crime scene at the right time.
Not to support Pearly Poll.
He happened to be a soldier, but he could have been anything.

So of course there were soldiers that night - and dating prostitutes - unless you say PC Barrett's a liar.

Stop referring to Pearly Poll. Her soldiers may have existed, but I don't think they had anything to do with the soldier PC Barrett encountered even though they were two as well (according to himself). And I don't think any of Pearly Poll's soldiers was the killer, unless she got the timing wrong with two hours.

P.S. And no - Jack the Ripper wasn't there.

All the best

[Jeff Leahy]

Now Pearli Poll wasnt she......................ow!!!!!!! I felt that Glenn

PS Michael..lack of self control? The Ripper crime were fenzied, brutal but deliberate. I see little change in MO hear . Just natural development.

I'm in London all day at the Video Expo...so bye

[harry]

PC Barretts account of a soldier going off with a girl,regardless of the timing,has no evidential value whatsoever in regard to Tabram's killing,unless it could be proved that the girl was Tabram.Whatever one might think of Pearly Pol's evidence,it does connect Tabram by name,and was accepted at the time of being the only evidence of her being in the company of a soldier.No matter how many times the subject is discussed,that fact will be consistant.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Harry,

That is absolute nonsense.

All the best

[The Good Michael]

PS Michael..lack of self control? The Ripper crime were fenzied, brutal but deliberate. I see little change in MO hear . Just natural development.

I agree with that re: change in MO. I suppose it boils down to those think Tabram was a one-off think there are more dissimilarities than similarities to the canonical 5 (or 3 or 4). While I lean in the direction of a soldier being able to do what was done to Tabram, I see the possibility of this being a first killing from a guy who didn't get what he thought he might get out of the murder (read: sexual release), and tried a different tack with the next victim. In Tully's book, he explains this in a logical, if melodramatic way. There's no way anyone, of sound mind, can say one way or another what is the truth or even what is most likely based on the current data. Anyone who does is a real fruitcake in my mind.

Cheers,

Mike

[Shelley]

I think the sexual connection in plainer terms is that a homosexual will choose victims that he is sexually attracted too ( males), also the mother connection in male sexual wiring that also runs into sexual partners in later years, so JTR was hetrosexual in any case, the taking of wombs is very close in sexually motivation. I expect JTR would do his own kind of tasteful trimming ( or even be upset as a piece of comforting organ a bit of missing in an area, short-changed as ' intact ' terms)....you know a bit like if an iced cake with decoration is mising some decorations and looks a bit knackered, you'd be a bit upset at the look of it. And also Sam's explaination of ' A cored apple '.

[Shelley]

Harry,
It's likely that Tabram did go off with a soldier, crime scene and PC Barrett, also Poll said soldier, the timing and 6th August was not a Bank Holiday. I think the ID parade of a soldier and the police would go on the strength of PC Barrett as well.

I would say that with 39 vicious stab wounding on Tabram was frenzied, although with Nicholls it was pounce then getting to work on an attempt at ' opening up ' however just reading a bit more there were some cuts accross her abdomen, for so reason i get this vision of someone mentally ill suffering and kneeling down beside her body, much like someone would bang a stick on the ground or in the grassy ground, that he was doing this with the knife, i also get this vision of him also having a jagged knife.....can anyone elaborate on this a bit?
Hopefully Glenn, Perrymason or Sam.