Ripper Victim?

[perrymason]

The fact that the womb was taken in TWO cases indicates, however, that the genital area or possibly some sexual symbolism may have been of relevance.

All the best

Hear.. hear.....and he does take more than female internal organs, he takes a part of Annies vagina with him. Im not convinced there is a need to acquire or a focus on things sexual...I believe its things female. To some they may be indistinguishable in murders of women by men...but an example might be that he likes killing women because they are smaller and weaker than him, and his choice of mutilation zones might be speed related.

I believe he likes to start on a larger canvas, and a mid-section exposed would offer the largest area of essentially "boneless" flesh to cut.

Your comments on the Uterus have to be considered when looking at one found under Marys head completely excised and left behind.

Cheers Glenn,...nice to see you.

[Sam Flynn]

The fact that the womb was taken in TWO cases indicates, however, that the genital area may have been of some interest.

Not the vagina, though, Glenn - nor the "genital area", which is external. Like I said - he was more interested in what was INSIDE the body.

[c.d.]

Just an observation here...Tabram used to be argued dispassionately with people laying out points both pro and con. It now seems we are heading towards Liz Stride territory. Very strange.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Hear.. hear.....

Deaf... deaf... or whatever the opposite of "hear, hear" is, Mike (For explanation, please see my response to Glenn.)

We must be wary of fuzzy thinking. The specifics are more - um - specific, and we should stick to them.

[Shelley]

Actually, Shelley, Jack is perhaps more notable for NOT having focused attention on the vagina - he seems to have been much more interested in what was inside the body. Even in Kelly's case, where the flesh was stripped from thigh to thigh, it seems that the external genitalia were largely intact, as the "external organs of generation" were included in the slab of flesh he'd removed.

In Tabram's case, there were overwhelmingly more puncture wounds in the neck and upper body than there were lower down.

Right you are Sam,
But JTR did cut up, and some wounding was with the vagina but yes that sounds right that he was primarily overall concerned with what was in the body and what i could see all along.
It may depend on the extent of a wound that was from the vagina....I recall feces matter with one, can't remember which one ( Ooo...Nasty business in any case).

[perrymason]

Not the vagina, though, Glenn - nor the "genital area", which is external. Like I said - he was more interested in what was INSIDE the body.

Again Sam, part of Annies vagina was missing.

Cheers Sam

[Chava]

Not the vagina, though, Glenn - nor the "genital area", which is external. Like I said - he was more interested in what was INSIDE the body.

The female genital area is inside the body. Unless you think he should have had it away with a victim's labia maiora.

[Sam Flynn]

Your comments on the Uterus have to be considered when looking at one found under Marys head completely excised and left behind.

... and please let's not go there for a start!

Tabram thread, this, not (yet) another "Mary was different from all the others" fest.

[FrankO]

Actually, Shelley, Jack is perhaps more notable for NOT having focused attention on the vagina - he seems to have been much more interested in what was inside the body.

Hi Gareth,

I genuinely don't know if especially that last bit is true. After all, we shouldn't forget that he took part of Chapman's belly wall as well.

Even in Kelly's case, where the flesh was stripped from thigh to thigh, it seems that the external genitalia were largely intact, as the "external organs of generation" were included in the slab of flesh he'd removed.

Correct, but we don't know if the cut 'on' the 'private part', as Swanson wrote in one of his reports, actually cut the vagina. It may have been just close to it, without actually damaging it.

All the best,
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

The female genital area is inside the body.

That's where I've been going wrong. "The genitals" is generally taken to mean the external sex organs. I don't consider my prostate or urethra to be part of my "genitals", for example, although they're certainly part of my reproductive system. Ditto the vagina, the fallopian tubes, the uterus and ovaries in women.

We must be very specific when dealing with the nuances of this case, as too much sloppy thinking is dangerous. Even professionals aren't immune, like Keppell with his "stabbing is the same as cutting" nonsense, for example, which lends artificial and misplaced weight to arguments for Tabram's inclusion in the Ripper canon.

[Sam Flynn]

I genuinely don't know if especially that last bit is true. After all, we shouldn't forget that he took part of Chapman's belly wall as well.

True enough, Frank. That's sloppy thinking on my part, perhaps - although strictly it doesn't detract from my statement that he appeared "more" interested in what was inside the body.

[Jeff Leahy]

That's about all that there was that was similar about them, Chava.

Unless your Jack:

1. Bothered about the victims' ages like a vulture worries about the age of its prey;

2. Mentally measured each passer-by until one fitted into his ideal height range, whose variance was no greater than that of the average population;

3. Did not have any particular hangups about hair, nor the number of wiggy-wags that might have been crawling in it;

4. Was engaged in a "gnash-a-thon", aiming to notch up enough dentally-challenged victims to account for three full sets of teeth between them;

5. Suffered from a prosopagnosia so bad that he couldn't distinguish a woman with a muffin-face and dewlaps from one with pinched features and ironically sharp cheekbones.

can we keep this to language us oiks can understand?

[Sam Flynn]

Again Sam, part of Annies vagina was missing.

I know, Mike - but that's not "genitals" - and furthermore, it was attached to the uterus, which was clearly what he was after. Otherwise he'd have cored her from the outside like an apple.

[Shelley]

[QUOTE Chava;68769]

The female genital area is inside the body.

This is the only thing i'm glad about, so i don't have to stand with my hands covering the lower parts.

[Sam Flynn]

can we keep this to language us oiks can understand?

Nah, Jeff - I take a leaf out of my dad's book. When I was a kid, he'd always lob in a few obscure words into a conversation, to get me to look them up in a dictionary.

Anyway, it was only one word - and you could get the gist of what "prosopagnosia" meant by reading the rest of the sentence. I do try to help

Oh, there was also "wiggy-wags", a colloquial South Wales term for head lice.