Ripper Victim?

[Supe]

Shelley,

Who's Crister?

Sorry. Fisherman.

Don.

[Supe]

Chava,

Try once more, but from past experience I realize it is doubtless a futile gesture.

Whoever killed these women in the East End in 1888 was working with a limited victim pool, presumably because of their vulnerability. It was not modern-day Leeds or Bradford with their mixed populations. As Sam has pointed out, there was a certain sameness to those women, yet there are real differences among the victims in terms of height, weight, hair color, features and so on.

And by the way, were I walk out and look at the women in my town there would be a remarkable sameness to many of those in the same age cohorts as the victims we are discussing. Heights would vary, as with the 1888 victims, but all would be blonde (bottled or real), slim almost to anorexic, and so on. That is because they share a limited pool as well, in this case white Protestant suburban soccer moms.

The samness of the victims is in your head, I fear, not Jack's.

Don.

[FrankO]

Tjena Frank, my friend.
How are the tulips doing?

Hallå Glenn,

Well, the tulips are not doing too well, due to the financial crisis, but I'm okay and that's the main thing - for me anyway. How about yourself - how have you been?

How about trying to make it to the Ripper conference in London this year?

If I'm not on vacation at the end of October and still have enough days off left, I sure want to try and make it there. I would be looking forward to meet you and all the rest in the flesh for a change.

As for locality - hey, we're talking of a prostitute murder here so the locality is obvious and quite logical considering the vast number of cheap street prostitutes gathered on a small area.

That's true, but if she'd been killed in another prostitute district a couple of miles away, the point of locality would not be a ty to the Ripper murders, or at least very much less so.

The cut to Tabram's private parts - especially considering Tabram had 38 other wounds - is of no importance to me at all and no refererence to the Ripper whatesoever. I stand by my statement.

Then, as to the question of whether there is or isn't anything tying Martha Tabram's death to the Ripper crimes, we're going to (have to) agree to disagree, which is fine by me.

You seem to see nothing of importance mainly because you're looking at it from the angle that she received 38 other wounds, while I'm looking at it from the angle that the Ripper risked his very life to inflict those mutilations and looking at it from that prospective a cut to the private parts on another victim seems quite important to me. Those stab wounds seem to me to be inflicted in a sort of frenzy while the cut at least suggests something deliberate, certainly when coupled to the fact that the skirts were turned up.

But, you stand by your view and I stand by mine and, again, that's quite okay. It'll not shake the world.

Vi ses!
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

Hang on a second, Gareth. These are the descriptions of the first 4 vicims as taken from this board

Like I said - I wasn't pretending to get it spot on.

Just look at the victim photos. Bulldog-chewing-a-wasp-faced Tabram to mangled-but-formerly-attractive Kelly, with the entire spectrum in between. There's very little comparison visually.

All of those women had dark hair. 3 out of 4 were missing teeth. 3 out of 4 were 5' tall. 4 out of 4 were in their 40s, although one looked younger. Martha Tabram was dark-haired, 5'3", stout and 'middle-aged.

I think it's a good idea to establish the baseline characteristics, along each of those dimensions, for late-night Victorian slum vagrants before assuming any significance in those figures. I'd also have to wonder whether Jack would have bothered asking the victims for their ages before he slashed them with a knife. I don't think he'd have given a monkey's, frankly and - let's face it - as a chat-up line, "are you in your forties?" is pretty lame.

PS: "All those women had dark hair"? I think not.

I think you are being somewhat disingenuous with your comment on the photographs.

Not quite, Chava - unless you suggest that a similarity in drab clothing is somehow significant, when drab clothing was just about all the poverty-classes could aspire to.

Photos notwithstanding, many of these women were manky, wore drab, ragged clothes, carried their possessions snail-like wherever they went, and had variable dentitions. Their height would also have varied, as would any random sample of people even today. Unlike today, however, where the cult of the individual forces one to worry about whether one's trainers clashes with one's shirt, these poor buggers had to make do with whatever de-individuating schmutter they could buy, borrow, or steal - right down to their boots. Thus, poor Frankie-Howerd-faced Annie Chapman voices the hope, not long before she died, for her sister to lend her some boots so that she could go hop-picking; Eddowes gets John Kelly to pawn his. Both women, and many like them, might well have had to lump it with wearing men's boots themselves, in their time.

Welcome to the jumble

[FrankO]

The cut as you mention in relation to JTR, i wouldn't take it on faith as a definate point towards Martha.

Hi Shelley,

Like I wrote in my post to Glenn, the Ripper clearly displayed his macabre interest in the female abdomen and private parts by deliberately lifting the skirts of his victims and deliberately cutting them there. As I said, he was willing to risk his life for that. So, when I see lifted skirts and a cut to the private part in a pre-Nichols murder, I, for one, wouldn't just want to sweep that under the carpet all that easily, that's all. Again, by this I'm not saying Tabram was a Ripper victim. In fact, I'm not sure about her at all, although somewhat more confident than I am about Stride (not wishing to open that can of worms, and certainly not on this thread).

All the best,
Frank

[Chava]

Supe, we are talking about the East End of London. Immigrants' delight. There are all kinds of nationalities living there in the late 19th century: Ashkenazi Jews, Irish, non-Jewish Eastern Europeans, Italians, and so on and so on. There were all kinds of unfortunates on the street at that time. However this is all academic. I believe Tabram may have been an early victim of the Ripper. You are sure she wasn't. I'm not sure of anything around this case. You are. The Tabram murder, like the Kelly murder (another victim I'm not sure of) will always cause this kind of controversy because there are positive indications for both sides. You're right, you won't convince me that your position is correct because I don't believe anyone's position is right including my own. What we can't prove, we should regard as theory. Yours differs from mine in this instance.

By the way, Gareth, I don't recall mentioning the victims' clothes as an identifying factor for the series...

[Sam Flynn]

By the way, Gareth, I don't recall mentioning the victims' clothes as an identifying factor for the series...

That's about all that there was that was similar about them, Chava.

Unless your Jack:

1. Bothered about the victims' ages like a vulture worries about the age of its prey;

2. Mentally measured each passer-by until one fitted into his ideal height range, whose variance was no greater than that of the average population;

3. Did not have any particular hangups about hair, nor the number of wiggy-wags that might have been crawling in it;

4. Was engaged in a "gnash-a-thon", aiming to notch up enough dentally-challenged victims to account for three full sets of teeth between them;

5. Suffered from a prosopagnosia so bad that he couldn't distinguish a woman with a muffin-face and dewlaps from one with pinched features and ironically sharp cheekbones.

[perrymason]

Pirate,

You missed the point in my reply, rather than re-do it, when you can review it again mate.

And for me anyway, there is surface similarity in at least the general looks of Martha Tabram and Annie Chapman based on the morgue photos, and I dont see Mary Ann Nichols being that much different. They are similarly situated in life style and means, and none were skinny.

I think raising the fact that Martha is not an entirely different kind of woman,.... she is roughly the same size and shape and age as early Canonicals, and that she is killed on a Holiday are 2 viable points that favor the profile of an actual Ripper crime. There are several signatures missing however, and it seems to me illogical that they evolved to the state that they were present in 3 of the next four deaths after Martha in 3 unpracticed weeks...without an intermediate step. If he was capable of beginning his "career" with the signatures and actions he shows in Pollys murder, then theres no need to explain why that evolution seems dramatic, in style at least. But theres some reason to wonder why he wouldnt have had some seemingly important characteristics present in an earlier kill.

I personally feel that one of the keys to a genuine Ripper crime is that he causes his victims to lose consciousness before he uses a knife...which would imply he doesnt even have one in his hands at the time as they are likely both busy cutting off the womans air somehow. Which means he attacks first with his hands or some kind of ligature....some method of airway restriction is used.

There is no indication that in the case of Martha Tabram that her killer started the attack with anything other than the knife, nor that she was in any way semi or unconscious at any point throughout the stabbing frenzy. The only canonical that has that element incorporated is Mary Kellys murder...she was attacked with a knife while still conscious and able to resist somewhat. And it seems to also be absent in Liz Strides murder..as she may have been cut while falling, which would mean he already had the knife in his hand while he was choking her with the scarf.

Best regards all.

[Shelley]

Frank,
I understand what you mean, there can't be many killers in the east-end such as JTR who did primarily wound the viagina, it is a limited area i admit, also the type of killer i admit is very limited. However i understand Glenn as well, because these are some points:

1) A killer who is limited who wounds female genitalia

2) There is a very small number of women ( prostitiutes & high risk) who are being wounded in this way.

3) Tabram has a different MO & Signature for the most part to that of some canocials attributed to JTR in the list, she has also been attacked in a vicious and violent manner, by possibly 2 different men. There is obscurity as to which of these to men could possibly be truly the killer of Tabram, this is different to some in the list of the Canocial 5 ( some argue that not all the canocial 5 are attributed to Jack the Ripper (JTR).

However, there are these points to compare/advocate the list above.

A. Even though the type of killer whom will wound and mutilate the female genitalia, is limited in perhaps the rare band, we have also found that Emma Smith had been attacked herself by 4 men from a gang ( related to the high-risk area of prostitution) Emma did eventually die and also she had been subjected to female genitalia wounding, by a tear, the difference in ' Tear ' as oppossed to ' cut ' is the type of instrument or in this case weapon used to cause damage, regardless of the type of weapon used for one moment the intent to cause damage to the female genitalia is present in a mind or minds of others than JTR.

B. There are a few in number of women who suffer this type of wounding to female genitalia, however, because of the type of women found with such genitalia wounding is connected to prostitution and is therefore a high risk area and victimology is not the same in comparison to ordinary east-end residents to those involved in prostitiution...Prostitution has in 1888 been classed as high-risk and has that same high-risk in the modern times of today. Also with the case of 4 men in a gang who are like minded to that of JTR in wounding female genitalia, also many gangs operated in the east-end, how many then fall from the band of ' Rarity in mind towards damage of female genitlia do we have that are like JTR in this one area ' ( obviously without the abdominal type of ' cutting open ' which is attributed to JTR).

C. what is generally termed as the canocial 5, Polly, Annie, Liz, Kate & Mary.
All these women had only 1 killer at work, in Tabram's case she has two possibles, these are the differences, which sway that a victim who has had possibly two men attacker, it is hard to surmise in the case of Tabram with 2 men on who actually attributed wounding to her genitalia when we also have ' even though limited ' minds in the area who will damage/wound female genitalia which is kept within the boundaries of ' prostitution ' and not the residential area in this situation.

Note: It is difficult to attribute 1 prostitutes death by mutialation at the hand of 1 killer/attacker.

It is nearly impossible to attribute 1 prostitutes death of a violent and vicious nature at the hands of 2 possibilities of killer & attacker...Which is the killer and whom is the attacker. Or indeeed if injuries is all we have which draws all the canocial 5 plus Tabram in that pool, with 5 we have a single attacker, with 1 we have possibly 2 men attacker & killer or indeed just by injury a curiousity at the hand of 1 man with two weapons.


Oops! before i forget, Glenn' s mention of Bank Holidays and soldiers on leave, also sailors an miscallenous others around seeking some fun with the prostitutes in London's East-End.
I hope this helps....well somewhere.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

And just to add to that excellent observation CD. Is there any evidence at all. (Despite the fact that the police tried to verify Pearli Polls story) that Martha was drinking with her and two soldiers the night she was murdered?

So what you have is no evidence of two knives being used. And no evidence of any soldiers.

For heaven's sake, Jeff.

This has been said so many times and now we have to go through it again?
Once more: forget Pearly Poll! her story may or may not have been true. But her story is not important for the soldier aspect.
The importance lie in the soldier described by PC Barrett, found waiting in the vicinity of the crime scene at the right time for the murder to occur (saying his pal had "gone off with a girl")!
THAT is the soldier connection - not Pearly Poll.

And of course, as a PC we have a much more credible witness in Barrett than in Pearly Poll (who was a very reluctant and probably scared witness), although he never managed to identify the man.
Good Lord. It's all there in the witness statements! All you have to do is read.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Shelley,

Who's Crister?

Sorry. Fisherman.

Don.

Supe.

That's Christer.

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

I understand what you mean, there can't be many killers in the east-end such as JTR who did primarily wound the viagina

Actually, Shelley, Jack is perhaps more notable for NOT having focused attention on the vagina - he seems to have been much more interested in what was inside the body. Even in Kelly's case, where the flesh was stripped from thigh to thigh, it seems that the external genitalia were largely intact, as the "external organs of generation" were included in the slab of flesh he'd removed.

In Tabram's case, there were overwhelmingly more puncture wounds in the neck and upper body than there were lower down.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

But there's nothing to suggest a soldier killed her. I've read that the knife could have been a bayonet. But I doubt off-duty soldiers carried their bayonets with them. They would have been too big and way too cumbersome for that.

Again, the strongest soldier connection lie in PC Barrett's encounter with a soldier on the spot close to the murder site on an approximate right time for the murder to occur.
Not in a supposed 'bayonet' as the murder weapon (we don't really know what type of murder weapon it was - Killeen just made some guesswork and it's possible he may have been influenced by the talk about soldiers when he suggested a 'bayoney').

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Actually, Shelley, Jack is perhaps more notable for NOT having focused attention on the vagina - he seems to have been much more interested in what was inside the body.

The fact that the womb was taken in TWO cases indicates, however, that the genital area may have been of some interest.

All the best

[Shelley]

Glenn Lauritz Andersson;68746]

The importance lie in the soldier described by PC Barrett, found waiting in the vicinity of the crime scene at the right time for the murder to occur (saying his pal had "gone off with a girl")!
[B]THAT is the soldier connection - not Pearly Poll.

And of course, as a PC we have a much more credible witness in Barrett than in Pearly Poll

This is more of importance as a witness statement as it comes from outside the group involved from a policeman and connection of Soldier to the crime scene. By the way i didn't know this Glenn until you told me.