Ripper Victim?

[Shelley]

I never said I didn't like your personality, Shelley.

I only suggested that you may have been given a mistaken impression about the difference between "MO" and "signature". You sent me a private message on this topic, and I responded with what I hoped was a helpful overview of the distinction between the two. I think people may end up being put off trying to help or exhange views with you, though, if you choose to respond with such bizarre and incoherent aggression, and dismissing an opposing viewpoint as "Bollocks!" isn't expecially polite either.

Ben,
I think we had better cease any posts to one another right now..
I'll take this opportunity to say
Goodbye.

[Chava]

Hi Chava, don't forget, Martha was killed on a Bank Holiday too, like some of the others.

YOu're right! I forgot to include that. Nicholls was killed on a bank holiday and Kelly was killed just before the Lord Mayor's Parade.

[perrymason]

YOu're right! I forgot to include that. Nicholls was killed on a bank holiday and Kelly was killed just before the Lord Mayor's Parade.

The Holidays, or the weekend dates both are key elements when searching for JtR potentials...I agree. Emma, Martha and one or two others that dont leap to mind immediately were holiday kills...I believe the fictional Fairy Fay was also, wasnt she on the 25th or 26th?...... there were 2 in the spring I thought....though not Annie Millwood...anyway, memory aside, the fact that Martha is killed on a Holiday I believe is a check on the side of "possible Ripper victim".

For me though, this kind of frenzied stabbing is impersonal when compared with slicing, cutting, and scooping out warm organs with his hands.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

I'd like for you to explain what you mean by my cocksure attitude, because you've lost me completely i'm afraid.

You were pretty sure that my comparison between cutting into the nasal bone and pushing a shovel into frozen turf was "bollocks", whereas the force required to do both is about on a par. The nasal bone isn't all that thick, you see, and if anything, you'd need to exert more force to penetrate frozen soil, than to crunch through the nasal bone with a sharp knife.

The other thing is, explain what you mean by ' ill-informed '

You seemed to believe that the Ripper's cutting off Eddowes' nose required him to cut through bone - this was not the case, but you disagreed (rather colourfully) with my pointing this out to you. Dr Brown describes the cut thus:

"The tip of the nose was quite detached from the nose by an oblique cut from the bottom of the nasal bone to where the wings of the nose join onto the face."

Note - from the bottom of the nasal bone, not through it. In other words, through the cartilaginous tip of the nose, as I said.

For one, are you saying that everything i have written in posts is ill-informed?

Not at all. Only some of it.

[protohistorian]

The Holidays, or the weekend dates both are key elements when searching for JtR potentials...I agree. Emma, Martha and one or two others that dont leap to mind immediately were holiday kills...I believe the fictional Fairy Fay was also, wasnt she on the 25th or 26th?...... there were 2 in the spring I thought....though not Annie Millwood...anyway, memory aside, the fact that Martha is killed on a Holiday I believe is a check on the side of "possible Ripper victim".

For me though, this kind of frenzied stabbing is impersonal when compared with slicing, cutting, and scooping out warm organs with his hands.

Best regards all.

That is a very subjective statment. killing is killing regardless of subsequent behaviors. Respectfully, Dave P.S. you know I like you Michael

[perrymason]

There are aspects of this murder that are not often considered when assessing the potential for Martha's inclusion in the Canonical Group.

Assuming the killer didnt arrive after she had been multiply stabbed for a sec, then he picked her up...either with Poll and the other soldier as his tag along, or he came along after the soldier.

If he came along after the other soldier, he may have picked up a prostitute after midnight on a Holiday and taken her behind building to attack her. Which would make stab vs slice arguments trickier when seeking the definition of "Jacks" preferences. The initial methodology would be virtually identical to the one we can be almost sure existed with Polly...(in that case it was in front of buildings), then Annie, and also likely Kate.

I do not personally believe this was a Ripper kill based on more than Im mentioning here, but I like to think I can see both sides of a coin.

Best regards all.

[Shelley]

You were pretty sure that my comparison between cutting into the nasal bone and pushing a shovel into frozen turf was "bollocks", whereas the force required to do both is about on a par. The nasal bone isn't all that thick, you see, and if anything, you'd need to exert more force to penetrate frozen soil, than to crunch through the nasal bone with a sharp knife.You seemed to believe that the Ripper's cutting off Eddowes' nose required him to cut through bone - this was not the case, but you disagreed (rather colourfully) with my pointing this out to you. Dr Brown describes the cut thus:

"The tip of the nose was quite detached from the nose by an oblique cut from the bottom of the nasal bone to where the wings of the nose join onto the face."

Note - from the bottom of the nasal bone, not through it. In other words, through the cartilaginous tip of the nose, as I said.Not at all. Only some of it.

I gave a point on Eddowes nose on another post which also came from the Doctor's report, in where some nasal bone and cheek bone were cut. The information you are posting is another half to that report of Eddowes facial mutilations. If you want a different reply to what i originally said, Here it is: ....I do not agree with you Sam and the impression you gave me in your reply to what i had already posted in opinion on the thread, was it is not in my opinion just a slap-dash hack on the face of Eddowes. I would think that your version of the frosted turf and shovel is not any comparison to Eddowes nose and the cuts/mutilations from a sharp instrument. Also Bones have differences in the body, such as the femur is different to a nose bone. If i ever made a mistake it would be not mentioning the part you bring up as above, but nasal bone was cut, so i cannot be ill-informed to have mentioned that Sam, and the rest is my opinion, i hope you do not class that as ill-informed in the bargain as well i trust?
Also you cannot posibly say what i beleived, you are making an assumption as to my thoughts which are incorrect,and i am aware that Eddowes nose was not taken off. But i am also aware that Eddowes nasal bone was cut.

[Shelley]

JTR's MO didn't change it is consistent, it is his signature that was extended on over the period with Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes...

[harry]

As I believe Tabram to have been one of the Ripper's early kills,it is no surprise that his method of killing changed so quickly,from that of stabbing the throat to one of slashing.How long it took for her to die is anyones guess,it may not have been untill after he left,so the possibility is that she showed some sign of life while he performed the mutilation to the body,and he took care it didn't happen on future occassions..I do differenciate between the injuries to the throat and those to the rest of the body,as I believe the former as just a means of killing,and seperate in thought to the body mutilations whose purpose perhaps only he ever understood.

[Sam Flynn]

Also you cannot posibly say what i beleived, you are making an assumption as to my thoughts which are incorrect,and i am aware that Eddowes nose was not taken off. But i am also aware that Eddowes nasal bone was cut.

It was NOT. The TIP of the nose FROM the bottom of the nasal bone to where the nostrils joined onto the face was cut. The killer's knife penetrated Eddowes' CHEEKBONE (which is comparatively thin), which is possibly where you're getting confused.

I'm only pointing out facts, Shelley, and neither I nor anybody else should be taken to task or insulted ("Bollocks", indeed!) for doing so.

[Shelley]

It was NOT. The TIP of the nose FROM the bottom of the nasal bone to where the nostrils joined onto the face was cut. The killer's knife penetrated Eddowes' CHEEKBONE (which is comparatively thin), which is possibly where you're getting confused.

I'm only pointing out facts, Shelley, and neither I nor anybody else should be taken to task or insulted ("Bollocks", indeed!) for doing so.

Sam,
Like i said you are reffering to another half of the report, you also said that in reference to my colourful response it would be the equivalent of a ' Frosted-lawn and sticking a spade point in it ' in order to cut the nasal bone in any case, so you also think that the nasal bone was cut in that response....However what you are pointing out is flesh wounding from the bottom of the nose. And i do vividly recall a description of ' like a flap '....However i pointed out in another post here that another part of the report stated a wounding on the bridge of the nose to say that the nose bone had been cut, as the bones were divided in the cheek, that Sam is flippin' deep to say the least so the nose bone had been cut.....Once again i have to say i disagree with you....Also having said that and reading it again, i correct myself on the same post that ' A slip ' could have occurred, it's not possible given the extent of the facial cheek injury. Nose bone was cut Sam.

Also i don't think it's a bad suspect to pick such as ' Rosyln ' O ' Donston, as some who post here lean towards him as a ripper suspect.

However, i am positive that Martha is not a Ripper victim as practice or otherwise. And in posts i have explained the reasons, likley or evidently otherwise. The Style of MO between Marth Tabram to that of Nicholls is very different for a number of reasons.
I made a couple of joke posts, as i was a little jovial, i get battered and called particular inferences as to my character which are untrue, normally i wouldn't have posted my last joke post, it was a little out of character to me that is.....However i made a point and other posters can't seem to come up with anything that is of value in response.
No one has posted something relevant in relation to it.
No one has said that in Whitechapel in 1888-89 that there were few killings, but mainly beatings and some stabbings. That's an example more on the lines from my said posts, if someone had said , Shelley your'e ill-informed to the circumstances of the area of the time and occurrances of said Killings taken place. Some of my posts have been general in cases of crime and some serial killers do practise on corpses, but they get thier own supply, they don't scavenge in a smaller area, not unless they are really lucky to come accross such said dead body and is more likely to occur in a wider area as a 'rare factor' in a place such as the USA and in a notable area known for a lot of murders. Such as ' Murder city ' ( A joke city i'll point out......Not that there is such a place called murder city).

Sam, it is snatching at threads, to use another half of the report of Eddowes facial mutitlations, in comparison to the other half i used of said cutting to cheek bone as divided and the same report says bridge of the nose, the way the knife had gone the force to cut said cheek bones to divide is evident that the nose bone would have been cut. I would think that the way the facial mutitlations occurred, would be the bottom of the face was first cut, so from cheek to nose, he then clamed down a bit more and did a nick in the eyelid. You know, more time and a precise little nick in said eyelid. That Sam as i said is not butchering a face such as in the case of Mary Kelly. Kelly had wounding that was all-over the place, so no, i don't think just a hack job Sam, i also think that the stale alcohol on Eddowes face was a trigger, that was what drew JTR to her face, so with his MO and what drew him to facially mutilate, the smell came from the mouth, so starting at bottom area of face, as he did with the body fit's in Sam. Also Sam that was a slip in wording for me ' B*ll*cks on posting, as i explained it's just my plain speaking....Rather than tell me to be a little less belligerent, you should have said then and there that you were offended by such a term, i would have responded and apologised if it had offended you. Seems as you mention it after a few of your posts....Sorry Sam for that term. But i'll say to ' No different to shoving a Frosted-lawn with the point of a shovel ' Sam it's utter rubbish...........Is that better a response Sam?
Also to your version of the cheekbone is comparitively thin towards the nosebone, this may be so, but force going behind the weapon used to divide said cheekbones, how much comparision of thinning are we talking about, i'm no Doctor and i suspect neither are you, but i would guess that the high cheek bone and that was also cut gets thicker, in comarision to a bit lower down on cheek, but to get to the nose side, you do hit the higher cheekbone. Let's just have some differences here Sam, i don't exactly see the same as you in this.

[Sam Flynn]

I asked not to go into Eddowes territory, Shelley, and I repeat that here. On that basis, I'm not even going to comment on how right or wrong you or I might be in that regard. Suffice to say that I'm about as inclined to snatch at threads as I am to send them off-topic.

Going back to the point of contention that sparked this... it emphatically takes no more practice to hack off the tip of someone's nose with a knife than it does to puncture a body 39 times.

[Shelley]

I asked not to go into Eddowes territory, Shelley, and I repeat that here. On that basis, I'm not even going to comment on how right or wrong you or I might be in that regard. Suffice to say that I'm about as inclined to snatch at threads as I am to send them off-topic.

Going back to the point of contention that sparked this... it emphatically takes no more practice to hack off the tip of someone's nose with a knife than it does to puncture a body 39 times.

Sam,
With Due respect you yourself had engaged in Eddowes and said nose, cheekbone with reports.....I am aware that you said you didn't want to get into Eddowes territory, but that's your request and your (possibly) opinion. The fact is this: This is a Martha Tabram thread and possibly was she an early 2 stabs from said JTR, Eddowes has undoubtly and for a long period of time been classed as a canocial victim of his, if comparisons ensue from one victim of JTR or possible victim of JTR then this is going to be mentioned on these threads. Now do you undertand about my reference of ' Dictator '?
Again, i disagree.......I see no relevance in Tabram to that of Nicholls, Chapman or Eddowes, as i said before there are differences in MO, as Glenn has also mentioned and i am inclined to agree with him in this area. Sam let's just leave it as we disagree.Ok. Please now let's just get back on thread and leave out you said this senario's which tend to go off topic a little.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, With Due respect you yourself had engaged in Eddowes and said nose, cheekbone with reports.

I think you'll find that you raised the subject, Shelley, and suggested that it was more than likely that Jack would have needed to practice before being able to cut off her nose... in fact, here's your original post:

i made mention of an adaption with the facial mutilations on Eddowes....Considering the extent of cutting on her nose, it is more than likely he had been practising on perhaps a corpse in a basement/cellar somewhere...If not the facial mutilations would be less severe.

To which I responded that it was only the cartilaginous tip of her nose that was removed, and that this would not require any practice to achieve. You countered with "Not if the nose bone was involved, Sam", to which I pointed out that (a) it wasn't; and (b) even if it were, no great force - or practice - would be needed to penetrate it. No more force, in fact, than what might be required to poke a spade into frost-hardened ground. To this, you responded with the supremely constructive comment, "Bollocks".

I don't like being made to look a tw@ by others, when I can do it perfectly well by myself. Thanks for the help, nonetheless

[Shelley]

Sam,
I may have use some words a bit too freely, and left some bits i could have added in, left them out,and i take back the pracising in a basement or cellar somewhere senario, given the circumstances of the Crime in the area in 1888-89....In this i was generalising about some serial killers, still it was information posted. But i also forgot to mention the body as well as facial mutilation, as one of the Four Doctor's reports concerning the whitechapel murders, and according to another poster said, it was Dr Brown who had stated '....Cutting up animals ' and this is good information, and can relate to a killer who opens up his victims, in practising on cutting open animals and can also be practise on human corpses, if the whitechapel murder used mentioned practising on corpses, then this could be in areas such as the army, post-mortems etc.
And anyone who disagrees and makes thier own posts can make another poster look a bit of an arse. Still, i would say i can be a bit of an arse at times, on account of being human in the first place, so it's not a bad thing Sam. I know some posters who post hang on to that flaw in humans and pound them, all i can say is they are not too familar with humankind, a lack of knowledge, which is funny in itself as they usually are the ones proclaiming that they are so full of knowledge one would think they were an expert. News flash, experts sometimes come a cropper as well! I do not ever claim by the way in any shape or form to be, said Expert, one to which i'd post in big letters if you like to anyone. I also noticed some posts in reference to Glenn and some stupid stuff about him claiming to be virtually an authority in all fields of criminology but coming a cropper and he saves face, to me that's someone a bit dim making such suggestions as that to Glenn, because Glenn has had experience, he has qualification(s) relating to the subject of criminology, i don't think that he has ever claimed to be such a said expert, but he is good in the work he does and has proved a success, this so-called saving face that has been thrown at him several times on numerous occassions, i don't think it is saving face, Glenn has always been forthright and makes no bones when he has changed his mind, to this i would only surmise that he is figuring out a boundary of where one is possible in adaptions, or extentions and where it fit's and ties with consistencies, which is what you do in any case. And above all, the persons firing such accussations are amatuers and don't seem to have all Glenn's attributes that he has acquired along the way...Now that is funny to me.
And that last bit is 'plain speaking' Sam.

Now what is it that you may have to surmise on whether Tabram was a possible ripper victim, possible scavenger victim of JTR or victim of someone else other than JTR Sam?...Getting back on track of thread:

39 puncture wounds in Tabrams body, no throat-cutting is different to Nicholls and her throat-cutting which was deep, and also cutting to her abdominal area, the timing between the victims of Tabram & Nicholls is only a 3 week period, the style of MO in the sense of no throat-cutting in Tabram and it is evident in Nicholls, not to mention signature is different between the two victims. Also the word ' Engaging/ engaged/engage is not starting or raising a subject, 'What do you have to say Sam?