Ripper Victim?

[adrian]

Chava,

We ship internationally. A lot of our readers live in North America.

More details visit: www.whitechapelsociety.com

ADRIAN.

[adrian]

And if you don't live there, we ship anywhere in the world.

We have readers in Australia, Switzerland, Poland, Brazil and even...Whitechapel!!!

ADRIAN.

[Ben]

If she had been smothered to death, or bludgeoned to death, I would absolutely discount her. But she was killed with a knife, albeit in a different way.

Yes, I believe that to be the crux of the matter, Chava. And an excellent point. I don't accept that the change that would get us from Tabram to Nichols constitutes anything like adequate grounds for dismissal.

I do feel I tend to induce and hypnotize other posters into "trench warfare", for some reason!

[adrian]

Ben,

A valid point, if I may join the debate, disagree if we must, but no need for 'trench warfare'. Preferably without bayonets!

ADRIAN.

[harry]

As to the state of mind of the killer of Martha,one has to take into account the conditions at the time.It would have been very dim light indeed on that landing,and to have placed nine different wounds into such a small area as the throat,would have needed a good deal of concentration.I cannot see a drunk or wildly excited person doing it.Then we have a portion of the upper torso bare of wounds,followed by a concentration of blows to the right and left breast area.Little to the midriff section,then a concentration on the lower torso.That concentration does not ,in any way,to me,point to an out of control individual,stabbing randomly and wildly.

[Chava]

As to the state of mind of the killer of Martha,one has to take into account the conditions at the time.It would have been very dim light indeed on that landing,and to have placed nine different wounds into such a small area as the throat,would have needed a good deal of concentration.I cannot see a drunk or wildly excited person doing it.Then we have a portion of the upper torso bare of wounds,followed by a concentration of blows to the right and left breast area.Little to the midriff section,then a concentration on the lower torso.That concentration does not ,in any way,to me,point to an out of control individual,stabbing randomly and wildly.

That is an excellent point Harry!

And it would have taken quite a while to carry out that attack. If it was an enraged trick, I think you'd have seen fewer stab wounds than that. There was a case in the Canadian papers this week of a man on trial for attempting to kill his wife with a pocket knife. He was enraged with her and attacked her with his knife and stabbed her 4 times in the body. It's a long way from 4 stabs to 39! By the way, the woman's thumb was basically severed in her attempt to defend herself. There are no defensive wounds on Tabram. None. And I think that's strange. In extremis one tries to defend oneself. She didn't.

[Malcolm X]

As to the state of mind of the killer of Martha,one has to take into account the conditions at the time.It would have been very dim light indeed on that landing,and to have placed nine different wounds into such a small area as the throat,would have needed a good deal of concentration.I cannot see a drunk or wildly excited person doing it.Then we have a portion of the upper torso bare of wounds,followed by a concentration of blows to the right and left breast area.Little to the midriff section,then a concentration on the lower torso.That concentration does not ,in any way,to me,point to an out of control individual,stabbing randomly and wildly.

5 wounds (left lung) 2 wounds (right lung) 1 wound (heart) 5 wounds (liver) 2 wounds (spleen) 6 wounds (stomach)

According to Killeen, the focus of the wounds were the breasts, belly, and groin area. In his opinion, all but one of the wounds were inflicted by a right-handed attacker, and all but one seemed to have been the result of an "ordinary pen-knife." There was, however, one wound on the sternum which appeared to have been inflicted by a dagger or bayonet (thereby leading police to believe that a sailor was the perpetrator).

i dont understand, who mentioned 9 wounds to the throat; no way ... or am i missing something, if so i apologise......

[CLK]

The stabs to seem to be kind of spread out - I would have thought someone in an out of control rage would have aimed at the same place in the body, also the fact that it does not seem she tried to defend herself also suggests planning, someone in a drunken rage may not have bothered to silence her quietly. It seems to me someone had put a bit of planning into it. I would also have expected someone doing an drunken attack would have been clumsy when doing it, and the cut that may have been a stab gone wrong is the only thing that suggests the killer was clumsy.

[perrymason]

Although I respect Harrys contributions, there is actually no need or evident reason to assume that the wounds caused to Martha were not done by frantically stabbing. The fact the killer hits vitals on some stabs is I believe an indication he knows where to stab for major organs...just like a military man would be trained to do with close combat or "bayonet" usage.

Since not all stabs were in major organs, it would seem he may have stabbed "hurriedly".

Martha had no money on her when found, but at least one known client....since her money is gone, and we cannot attribute that to someone seeing her spend it somewhere...we most likely have a scenario that is much like Emmas... but ends something like Ada's. Meaning an attack by one or more people that ends with robbery an at least attempted murder.

Since we can be fairly sure Polly had no money, since she says herself she has earned and spent doss money a few times over....and we actually have coins left by Annies body, both of them sudbued before having their throats cut and abdominal mutilations postmortem.....Martha if anything is the dividing line between random street crime and a new killer, an abdominal mutilator.

The same that is suggested by the Coroner in Mary Anns Inquest.

In terms of context, the killer of Martha Tabram killed her by stabbing her perhaps frantically 39 times, a single wound in that number is made with a different weapon, and she is perhaps robbed during this attack. The objectives from that data therefore can only realistically be the killing itself....and/or theft.

Polly and Annie were killed to allow the killers real objectives or goals to be achieved...those of postmortem mutilation of female abdomens.

Best regards all.

[Ben]

In truth, Mike, there's no evidence that any of the victims had any money secreted about their persons, so for all we know, all of the ripper's victims - including the "canonicals" could have been robbed. There were no coins left by Annie's body - that's a myth. If anything, it seems overwhelmingly probable that Chapman's killer sifted through her belonging for anything of value, discarding the obviously valueless items in the process.

Tabram is really no different to the other victims with regard to the likelihood of her being robbed.

Best regards,
Ben

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I cannot see a drunk or wildly excited person doing it.Then we have a portion of the upper torso bare of wounds,followed by a concentration of blows to the right and left breast area.Little to the midriff section,then a concentration on the lower torso.That concentration does not ,in any way,to me,point to an out of control individual,stabbing randomly and wildly.

That is absolute nonsense, and it is annoying to say the least that Harry continues to spread this misconception, which by the way is completely erronous.
There is no sign whatsoever of a 'controlled' individual in the Tabram murder, none whatsoever. As has been said hundred times before, the placements of the wounds when they consist of so many, is perfectly where I would expect them to be since those are the areas that are usually targeted in any multiple stab murder.

I know of no case in crime history where a multiple stabbing with so many wounds haven't been a result of frenzy. But apparently Harry obviosuly lacks knowledge about these types of murders and haven't seen that many of them. I have, and to be honest they don't differ that much from what we see in the Tabram murder.

A multiple stab murder with 39 puncture wounds is NOT - and CAN NOT be - a result of a controlled attack or a deliberate design.

All the best

[perrymason]

In truth, Mike, there's no evidence that any of the victims had any money secreted about their persons, so for all we know, all of the ripper's victims - including the "canonicals" could have been robbed. There were no coins left by Annie's body - that's a myth. If anything, it seems overwhelmingly probable that Chapman's killer sifted through her belonging for anything of value, discarding the obviously valueless items in the process.

Tabram is really no different to the other victims with regard to the likelihood of her being robbed.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

I know that Liz has money she earned we cannot place her spending, and that Mary was given coins by Maria that werent in her room. Polly has not got enough for her nights bed even though she had said she earned enough a few times, Annie is seen dejectedly staying out while feeling terrible because she needed to make her nights bed still, and Kate was just released from Jail 45 minutes before being found dead, and of her possessions listed no money is mentioned.

Since both Mary and Liz were paid money earlier in the day, and had gone out since, it seems logical to assume they spent what they had on them before they are killed. Which means that 5 of 5 Canonicals by reason should have little or no money on them when killed.

Martha however likely did....not after the murder though.

Annies rings werent Urban Legend, nor were the pills or envelope corner...and Phillips says this at the Inquest...

"I searched the yard and found a small piece of coarse muslin, a small-tooth comb, and a pocket-comb, in a paper case, near the railing. They had apparently been arranged there. I also discovered various other articles, which I handed to the police."

Those "various other articles" might include the coins.

Cheers Ben

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

I'm not sure quite what the case is for Tabram "likely" having money on her when she died and not the others. Most of them were soliciting at the time of their deaths, and most of them did so in order to pay their lodging house doss. That doesn't mean that they couldn't have done some extra trade in order to procure some precious gin money. A case could be made that some of them were completely penniless when murdered, but not all of them. Besides which, having insufficient funds to pay for a bed doesn't equate to having no funds at all.

Those "various other articles" might include the coins.

Very unlikely, Mike.

As Sugden notes in his excellent chapter, "The man in the passage and other Chapman murder myths", there are four authentic eyetiness accounts of the appearance of the body in the backyard; Chandler (twice), Dr. Phillips and James Kent. None of them mention any polished farthings at any stage, and the chances of Phillips specifically mentioning pieces of muslin but lumping more valuable items under "various other articles" is very unlikely. "The inquest depositions of Chandler and Phillips are very detailed and would unquestionably have recorded the presence of these articles had they been there..." says Sugden, and I certainly endorse his observations.

Best regards,
Ben

[perrymason]

Ben, ..Im not particularly enthralled by the coins, there or not, truth be told....but I do think that since two women tells us via witnesses that they were staying out until they earned doss money, and one that acknowledges doing so and spending it a few times over...and is now without her doss..indicates that its most likely...neither Polly or Annie had any money on them. If Annie could pay for her bed aleady...it seems logical based on her own words again, that with her feeling ill she might just have called it an evening. Liz had 6d, 4d would have covered her bed...but she doesnt pay for it and we dont know where she did spend it...although she does suddenly have flowers on her breast at some point. Mary made a few coins from Maria, but came home smashed and maybe fed. She likely went through those coins earlier. Kate had no money in her possessions taken from her at the station, and she has none when she is found 45 minutes later dead.

Clearly Ben...none were likely robbery targets...and most if not all very likely had no money at all on them when they are attacked and killed. We know that Martha most likely did however.

Cheers again mate.

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:

"This sodding debate goes on forever."

Feel free to step off whenever you want to, Ben! For some reason you seem always to be annoyed when people are of a different opinion than you are, you seem always dead set on making the debate as short as possible, but you seem equally dead set of changing your mind on that last point if you have not had the last word...

" It is likely that Jack became focussed as a result of experience"

To some extent, yes. But in this context, Emma Smith offers a better choice as a an early "experimental" victim. Why? Beacuse in that case someone shoved an object into her vagina, and that at least shows some sort of twisted interest in her reproductive organs, and some sort of focus. If Tabram was only stabbed by the one man, then she shows NOTHING of that kind. In fact, but for the cut to the lower abdomen - that may have been intended as a stab - what we look at is somebody AVOIDING the reproductive area. In that sense, Tabram is a poor candidate if we are looking for an experimenting Ripper, since we need to see at least some sort of connection to the later evinced interests on his behalf to be able to speak of a connection. If we allow any sort of knife-work to candidate for the title as Ripper warm-up, we dilute the given facts beyond recognition.

"We don't know how many victims Jack killed, so we're not entitled to decide how consistent he was. If Kurten was never caught and identified, I'm sure there would be many who would argue that he was responsible for only his most consistent ones"

There never WAS any real consistency with Kürten, Ben, and that of course means that it would have been hard to tell who belonged to him if he had stayed uncaught, just like you say. But that does not give us the liberty to theorize that the Ripper would have been anything along those lines, and make comparisons working from such a wiew. It would once again be to dilute. It is in no way strange that you call for such a thing, though, since it is the only way you can even remotely validate your stance.
We HAVE four throat-cutting and abdomen-opening strikes that very reasonably can be called Jacks, and therefore what we HAVE is something that urges us to work along those lines when we look for possible predecessors to the canonical killings. We can argue about this forever, and you may bring as many "experts" on board as you like - as long as they keep telling us that Jack MAY have been this or Jack may have been that, they are only telling us things that anybody understands; that there is no actual physical hinderance for Jack to have been a stabber. Or a shooter. Or a poisoner. Or a hatchet artist. Or just about anything else.
That, Ben, are all things he MAY have been. A neck-cutter and an eviscerator, though, is what we KNOW he was!

"I'm just embracing expert opinion"

So you keep telling us. But since we KNOW what Jack was, I´d rather work from that than anybodys opinion of what he MAY have been.

"You can't decide how Unkurtenish he is based on a presupposition as to his kill-tally."

I can´t believe you wrote that, Ben! If I cant use the knowledge we DO have to compare him to Kürten, then what am I to use? Of course I can bloody well use the knowledge telling us that he chose to cut necks and open abdomens at each and every occasion he surfaced! That´s not to say that there could not have been other things hidden in the river of time, but since we do not know anything of any such issues, we cannot use it to establish a likeness between Kürten and Jack! It is totally and utterly futile!
Putting it otherwise, since I refrain from saying that there MUST have been other deeds, all of them EXACTLY like the canonical deeds, you should refrain from saying that there would have been experimental deeds, totally UNLIKE the canonicals in the way they were executed.
Either way, it is providing Jack with an agenda we do not know that he would have had before the Rippr killings.
But at least I would be able to say that the kind of deeds I was championing are related to what we know he did, whereas your suggestion craves a totally different deed, performance- as well as focuswise, a methodology that appeared once and disappeared afterwards, never to be heard of again, more or less.

"I'd strongly encourage you to read up on other cases"

I HAVE read up on other cases. My gut feeling tells me that a guy like Sam has too. Neither of us are all that ignorant, really. Kürten is a guy I have studied extensively some years back, and I could not care less if an expert tells me that he was Jack´s twin - for he was nothing of the sort. Take into account though, that I am only working from what we know about him and Jack - once the expertise you are speaking about starts adding all the things we DON´t know, it may put me at a distinct disadvantage. I freely admit that.

"Keppel, who knows more about serial killers than all of us here...finds nothing strange or rare about a transition from stabbing to slashing. It's the opposite of a rare thing"

So, more common than not, Ben? The thing to expect, actually? If you have evidence of a slasher, go looking for a guy who stabs next time over and you have your man?
You see, Ben, when you get desperate you go over the top, leaving all credibility way behind.
Tell me it can happen and I will listen. But tell me it is actually the more probable option and I will laugh.

Why is it that I feel that this "sodding debate" has not come to an end yet...???

The best,
Fisherman