Ripper Victim?

[Shelley]

yes but the Ripper cut the throat too and Tabram's murder doesn't have the Rippers M.O, but it could be an inexperienced JTR as mentioned above

Malcom X,
Yes there are differences as to MO with Tabram and those in the canocial 5. However, do not go by incorrect information, nowhere does it say that Tabram had any signs of strangulation, it is not recorded that she had a swollen protruding tongue, and judging by her photograph, that does not have any indication that she was strangled or partially either. Her face appears swollen but this could well be due to undernourishment & bloating, she was a plump woman Martha Tabram. However the Doctor recorded that Chapman had a swollen tongue. Having a swollen/engorged face is not a classic sign of strangulation here. Therefore Tabram isn't a possibility that she may have been strangled nor did she have her throat cut, both which do not match some of the canocials. I have heard everything on this thread, Tabram was strangled ( or partially), Tabram died with a stab to the heart, there were 2 attackers because of two weapons etc. Also a killer can carry two weapons, it is not impossible nor improbable.

[Shelley]

... unless he was into extreme keyhole surgery.

I had a good giggle at your comment Sam ( in a good way), i guess the keyhole surgery was a stab at ( 39 of them! ).

Well with JG saying about the ' outrage ' of Polly Nicholls, i think they meant possibly that it was an outrage to leave a dead woman lying in the street for all to see her lower parts with skirts up, exposed. A type of ' Disrespect for the dead ' in this manner, had she been alive with skirts up with a punter they wouldn't have called it an outrage,it would be ' just move along we don't want to be hanging around here with these sorts '.
He would still have said it was an outrage if her upper bodice had been torn in a struggle and part of the breasts were showing. Either way not particularly Jack like.

[Malcolm X]

The photograph of Tabram's body suggest that she was strangled. Her tongue is protruding slightly from her mouth. Her face is engorged. This may mean nothing other than that the killer held his arm across her throat to subdue her while he killed her. But there it is.

Whereas we probably can rule out the torso killings, I do not think we can rule out Tabram.

yes but the Ripper cut the throat too and Tabram's murder doesn't have the Rippers M.O, but it could be an inexperienced JTR as mentioned above

[Chava]

The photograph of Tabram's body suggest that she was strangled. Her tongue is protruding slightly from her mouth. Her face is engorged. This may mean nothing other than that the killer held his arm across her throat to subdue her while he killed her. But there it is.

Whereas we probably can rule out the torso killings, I do not think we can rule out Tabram.

[Malcolm X]

I'd say "inevitable" and "unremarkable", Mike - it's a perfectly natural configuration for a dead body to be in. There was no posing or adjustment of clothing for the Ripper victims that can't be simply explained - anymore than there may have been for Tabram, or anyone who's been knocked down, shot down, or fallen down for that matter. As I indicated to Jon earlier - we can't take the "arms at side, legs splayed and clothing disturbed" combo as being particularly Ripperesque.

the legs are nearly always apart when victims die, as per Eddowes, they just topple over backwards

[Sam Flynn]

But when its in conjunction with abdominal mutilations, it can be seen as an posing that was deliberate and practical.

I'd say "inevitable" and "unremarkable", Mike - it's a perfectly natural configuration for a dead body to be in. There was no posing or adjustment of clothing for the Ripper victims that can't be simply explained - anymore than there may have been for Tabram, or anyone who's been knocked down, shot down, or fallen down for that matter. As I indicated to Jon earlier - we can't take the "arms at side, legs splayed and clothing disturbed" combo as being particularly Ripperesque.

Indeed so, JG... but my point was that having one's skirt lifted for intercourse (or even "outraging", for that matter) is rather more common than having it raised for "ripping". In other words, it's by no means a particularly "Jack-like" sign.

But when its in conjunction with abdominal mutilations, it can be seen as an posing that was deliberate and practical. In Marthas case, we dont have abdominal mutilations, nor a slit throat, nor do we have evidence that the killer adjusted her clothing or pose....and even if we did have that evidence, it obviously didnt lead to abdominal mutilations.

Best regards

[Sam Flynn]

It appeared that way, Sam, but remember Charles Cross said that they thought Polly Nichols had been "outraged" when they pulled her skirt back down.

Indeed so, JG... but my point was that having one's skirt lifted for intercourse (or even "outraging", for that matter) is rather more common than having it raised for "ripping". In other words, it's by no means a particularly "Jack-like" sign.

[Jon Guy]

... it's rather more typical of intercourse having taken place, Dave.

It appeared that way, Sam, but remember Charles Cross said that they thought Polly Nichols had been "outraged" when they pulled her skirt back down.

[Sam Flynn]

Well i don't see any attempt to get a womb from her intacto in this position with Tabram.

... unless he was into extreme keyhole surgery.

[Shelley]

perrymason : Sam makes a good point......the victims we most associate with Jack based on the abdominal mutilations had their clothing cut or pushed up, their legs bent and splayed open. They were obviously put in that position to facilitate the mutilations.

It all depends on how you look at it....Get it?

Martha's clothing may have been disarranged from "sexual congress".. or from the struggle with her assailant.

Well i don't see any attempt to get a womb from her intacto in this position with Tabram. So Good points. Well done Sam & Perrymason.

[Shelley]

What is an odd notion, or should i say rather less odd, is that killers who strangle have left thier victims on thier backs with legs splayed open, skirts up in the air. But Tabram wasn't strangled. Mind you yet again, those that have had heart attacks have been found on thier backs too. i can be found on my back when i'm asleep, who knows if i was dressed wearing a skirt, my skirt might be up in the air too ( just as long as no ones looking).

Sam makes a good point......the victims we most associate with Jack based on the abdominal mutilations had their clothing cut or pushed up, their legs bent and splayed open. They were obviously put in that position to facilitate the mutilations.

Martha's clothing may have been disarranged from "sexual congress".....always liked that phrase, or from the struggle with her assailant.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

For all the knife attacks and assaults in Whitechapel they didn`t start finding prostitutes on their backs with their skirts raised up to the abdomen until Tabram, then another three weeks later,then a week later...

I'm glad you qualified that with "in Whitechapel", Jon... for surely there's nothing remotely "signaturish" about finding a dead prostitute on her back? If she'd been propped against the wall, or slung over the banister, we might be able to read more into it. As it is, the significant differentiator in Tabram's case is, not that she was found on her back, but that she was found with multiple stab-wounds.

[Sam Flynn]

that could've been any killer that did that [lifted the skirt]

... or any "intercourser".