Ripper Victim?

[Sam Flynn]

One more thing that can hardly be missed about Tabram: the fact that she's been found legs apart, her clothing being turned up to the centre of her body. That's why Barrett first thought that intercourse might have taken place. Isn't that typical of the Ripper?

... it's rather more typical of intercourse having taken place, Dave.

[Shelley]

Hi Chava,

Thats the thing here,....most of what we all offer is our perspectives based on the evidence....and I neglected to mention based on your earlier remark....yes, its shite around here today.

Makes the golf courses green....so I shouldnt complain.

Cheers Chava

Hi Perrymason,
Another one to which i agree with you again...Including the shite remark too
And for Paul Britton in his defence, his job is to work out the killers personality first & foremost, London is big and has the greater share of killers at large in the country, it is not without saying that there are more than one personality, personalities come in groups not anomalies. Paul Britton did his job correctly he got the personality just the wrong name to begin with, because Napper was the same personality type? Without exceptions YES!
Well Done Paul Britton, the police needed to do the rest to get the right man! And no it takes evidence to get the right man, coupled with the profiling mind reading theory, not theory alone!!

Golf Course? Oh yes: Humour & sometimes dry ' Poison up! poison up ! come & get your boiled eggs dry & full of blood spots too '

Paul Britton Only it wasn't his guy who killed that poor woman. 3 million quidsworth of wasted police time later, we find the killer was in fact Robert Napper.

In any case, I think we should probably not confine ourselves too closely to the canonical 5--or the absolutely no question 3. It's certainly possible that the Ripper assaulted other women prior to his first kill--no matter who that kill was. Myself I like Ada Wilson as a Ripper victim. But that's just a personal opinion. I am less inclined to think he killed afterwards, since those poor women were not found in the savage circumstances that Kelly was found. And I don't know if I believe the possibility of a killer becoming less violent after reaching a peak of frenzy like that!

Hi Chava,

Thats the thing here,....most of what we all offer is our perspectives based on the evidence....and I neglected to mention based on your earlier remark....yes, its shite around here today.

Makes the golf courses green....so I shouldnt complain.

Cheers Chava

[Chava]

Paul Britton Only it wasn't his guy who killed that poor woman. 3 million quidsworth of wasted police time later, we find the killer was in fact Robert Napper.

In any case, I think we should probably not confine ourselves too closely to the canonical 5--or the absolutely no question 3. It's certainly possible that the Ripper assaulted other women prior to his first kill--no matter who that kill was. Myself I like Ada Wilson as a Ripper victim. But that's just a personal opinion. I am less inclined to think he killed afterwards, since those poor women were not found in the savage circumstances that Kelly was found. And I don't know if I believe the possibility of a killer becoming less violent after reaching a peak of frenzy like that!

[Shelley]

Hi Shelley,

The ones I made bold are pretty widely accepted as murders that do not fit in a probable category for Jack the Ripper. And there really was no Fairy Fay.

That leaves 13 possible victims, not all of which are unsolved murders, and of which a few can be reasonably excluded...including perhaps one or 2 Canonicals. Most lists will not include Annie Farmer or Francis Coles....so there you have the 11 or 13 possible victims explanation.

Of course they didnt know which were by the same single killer, they had guesses, ...so do we...so who knows how long or short that list really should be.

Best regards Shell.

Thanks for the information Perrymason, much appreciated....I knew that Fairy fay was a journalistic creation in all possibilities. I have yet to do some more explorations concerning the list of Victims.

[Shelley]

perrymason Hi Ben,

That portion above for me is the pivotal issue,....did Jack the Rippers acts make him like a Unicorn among Horses? My answer would be yes.....I'm guessing yours would be no.

...and the fact that the killer never once betrayed himself with any evidence of who he was or where he was from.....all lead me to see this particular event in history as a much different "horse" from more traditional, modern examples of what serial killers do.

Good point Perrymason, and one i throughly agree with.

Let's see 1888 to 1988:

Street crime 1888 usual weapons used : The Knife
Street crime 1988 usual street weapons used: mostly the Knife, but also the introduction of Guns too ( guns rarer in the UK anyway...Forget the USA).

Fingerprinting in 1888 : None existent
Blood analysis in 1888 : could not be analised from animal to human
DNA matching in 1888 : None existent

Fingerprinting in 1988 : It existed! criminals can be identified with fingerprints.
Blood analysis in 1988: Could be analised in numerous ways.
DNA matching in 1988: Yes, DNA can be matched to identify the criminal.

[Shelley]

perrymason Hi Shelley, Chava,

The other victims did not show evidence of struggle that concluded with their legs and clothes being in the manner they were found,...the killer deliberately did that to mutilate victims..in Marys case, he moved her to the middle of the bed as well. Martha did show evidence of a struggle in her demeanor and final position...which could well have been caused by the struggle itself.

Yes, indeed i would think that the struggle evident in Tabram would most likely be due to the attack itself. I would also think given the circumstances Kelly was in ' A Drunken state ' she would have already most likely in my opinion have already laid herself down on the bed. With Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes partial subdue so a struggle wouldn't hinder the kill, however it is possible with a bruised sustained on Chapman's face that she may have struggled a little. After all Chapman was a bigger/stockier build than that of Eddowes & Nicholls.

Even if Martha didnt have 2 distinct wounds, she'd still be a cautionary inclusion at best....and one that may skew the data towards a killer with broader kill styles

yes, and at best there are only 2 distinct woundings as a causionary inclusion i agree, one of those two distinct wounding was also found on Emma Smith as well, noted in Smith's statement to the police about her attack, in which she subsequentley died a few days later. So causionary is the keyword here, because of : same area wounding on both Tabram & Smith was to be found in more than one killers mind here. However there is a remarkable difference in overall MO from Tabram to other victims in the canocial 3 listings, that it is impossible to ignore that not only such a significant change of MO, but also of signature!!!
And for the most part, a Signature still remains with the killer throughout all killings, only further adaptions on top of existing signature, for signatures to be honed further abroad, of course, there are sometimes circumstansial events, which cause the killer to be distracted, also extra time with some victims and a motif can be catered for, however overall the killer has no change in his signature and certain aspects of MO, the killers twisted mind remains, it remains the same throughout his killings.

Motif: Check Paul Britton ( Leading forensic profiler).

[Malcolm X]

Old Shakespear

``Her lifeless body was discovered lying on the bed the next morning, naked from the armpits down, according to the night clerk who found her. Her body was mutilated, and she had been strangled, but there are few details known about her injuries. The details of the autopsy were played down a great deal by the press, and all that we can know for sure is that there were 'cuts and stab wounds all over it.' The doctor who performed the autopsy, named Jenkins, is said to have thought that the killer had attempted to completely gut his victim. Other than that, the exactness of her injuries remain a mystery.''

we dont know enough about the Autopsy........but strangely enough, this looks a bit similar to Tabram...no cut throat, but stab wounds/cuts all over it......also this killer looks ( minus the clothing) a bit like the Lawende suspect, slim and fair.......but this killer isn't the Ripper, but more like the other killer in Whitechapel ..........uum strange .........we've got a right mess here..lets ignore ``old shakspear``

Remember that if we're prepared to accept that the killer had a "broader" criminal range, we're accepting that he's similar to the majority of serial killer's in that regard. The more we try to limit his range to include only the amazingly consistent ones, the more we make "Jack" an extreme rarity amongst other serial killers.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

That portion above for me is the pivotal issue,....did Jack the Rippers acts make him like a Unicorn among Horses? My answer would be yes.....I'm guessing yours would be no.

The events in totality are so confined to such a small piece of land in such turmoil at that time....they are made public the way CNN makes events public today...in that the general public finds the women and for the most part the witness accounts most relevant are not from the Law, only Kate is found by an authority, ...the acts themselves, the speed in which they happened, the duration of the serial killer spree....(in these cases that could be as little as 5 weeks or less), the onslaught of hoax mail...enormous volumes of it, the sheer numbers of pursuers...and the fact that the killer never once betrayed himself with any evidence of who he was or where he was from.....all lead me to see this particular event in history as a much different "horse" from more traditional, modern examples of what serial killers do.

Even if Jack himself wasnt all that special,..the way this played out I think was unique...and maybe due to the times as much as the killer.

My best regards Ben.

Oh fiddle dee dee!
I was going to list the 18 victims from all writers, but casebook has them all in this section of victims!.....I'll do it anyway:

1. Mary ann Nicholls
2.Annie Chapman
3.Elizabeth Stride
4.Catherine Eddowes
5. Mary jane Kelly
6. Emma Smith
7. Martha Tabram
8. Rose Mylett
9. Alice McKenzie
10.The Pinchin st Torso ( It was speculated to be Lydia Hart)
11. Francis Coles
12. Fairy fay
13. Annie Milwood
14. The Whitehall mystery (torso)
15. Ada Wilson
16. Annie farmer
17. Elizabeth Jackson
18. Carrie brown.

of course it has been said that Fairy fay may have been fictional, perhaps a made up story for the media based on Emma Smith's murder. Also there was divide amongst police opinion and with Dr Bond's imput they reduced the numbers to the canocial 5, however on other records they say that there is 11 offical victims, Tabram was indeed included in some police opinions of the offical 11 victims. Apparentley from my notes Martha Tabram had the alias Emma Turner and her maiden name was White.

Hi Shelley,

The ones I made bold are pretty widely accepted as murders that do not fit in a probable category for Jack the Ripper. And there really was no Fairy Fay.

That leaves 13 possible victims, not all of which are unsolved murders, and of which a few can be reasonably excluded...including perhaps one or 2 Canonicals. Most lists will not include Annie Farmer or Francis Coles....so there you have the 11 or 13 possible victims explanation.

Of course they didnt know which were by the same single killer, they had guesses, ...so do we...so who knows how long or short that list really should be.

Best regards Shell.

I think McKenzie was Jack's. I haven't made my mind up about Tabram yet - I think it solidly possible, however, as opposed to possible in the sense that I can't say it's impossible.

Does that mean I think it's likely? Hmm. Confused Crystal....

[Ben]

They did pick out 5 victims that were attributed to JTR, at the time the police did not consider Tabram or Smith to be JTR victims, the Victorian police put Tabram down to a Soldier

No, I'm afraid that isn't correct either.

Only Macnaghten went on record as ruling out Tabram, and he wasn't even around at the time of the murders. The majority of investigators who were around at the time - including Anderson, Abberline, and Reid - felt she belonged in the series.

and the man that killed Alice McKenzie....an almost mirror match for some crimes the previous year...shows us that at least one other man killed like Jack did, perhaps a copycat

That's only if we rule out McKenzie as a ripper victim, Mike, which we can't with any degree of confidence. Remember that if we're prepared to accept that the killer had a "broader" criminal range, we're accepting that he's similar to the majority of serial killer's in that regard. The more we try to limit his range to include only the amazingly consistent ones, the more we make "Jack" an extreme rarity amongst other serial killers.

Best regards,
Ben

[Shelley]

Oh fiddle dee dee!
I was going to list the 18 victims from all writers, but casebook has them all in this section of victims!.....I'll do it anyway:
1. Mary ann Nicholls 2.Annie Chapman 3.Elizabeth Stride 4. Catherine Eddowes 5. Mary jane Kelly 6. Emma Smith 7. Martha Tabram 8. Rose Mylett 9.Alice McKenzie 10. The Pinchin st Torso ( It was speculated to be Lydia Hart) 11. Francis Coles 12. Fairy fay 13. Annie Milwood 14. The Whitehall mystery (torso) 15. Ada Wilson 16. Annie farmer 17. Elizabeth Jackson 18. Carrie brown.

of course it has been said that Fairy fay may have been fictional, perhaps a made up story for the media based on Emma Smith's murder. Also there was divide amongst police opinion and with Dr Bond's imput they reduced the numbers to the canocial 5, however on other records they say that there is 11 offical victims, Tabram was indeed included in some police opinions of the offical 11 victims. Apparentley from my notes Martha Tabram had the alias Emma Turner and her maiden name was White.

[Malcolm X]

On one hand, his patience with Nichols (he did not lose his temper and start cutting or stabbing madly) stands in total contrast to what we see with Tabram. On the other hand, the evidence in the Nichols case indicates he has probably murdered before, but not in the method he adapted with the 'Ripper' crimes.

What do you think?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

yes good post, but because 2 weapons were ued on Tabram this indicates maybe two attackers, or JTR carried 2 knives, whatever the case; he's changed his M.O enormously from TABRAM to Nichols..... unless he realised that stabbing to death was far too noisy and inefficient....... this could be true, it looks like he was still learning with Nichols too, so maybe it makes sense that he was learning after Tabram as well..yes i can understand this.

I agree, Michael, although all of his victims were broads.

My study of the Nichols murder let me to conclude he had never killed a woman on the street and mutilated her abdomen. I concluded this because the evidence shows pretty clearly that he attempted to maneuver his knife under her clothing and stays in an effort to 'open her up'. The small cuts to her abdomen show he struggled unsuccessfully with this method and abandoned his victim (possibly because Cross was approaching). But he learned his lesson from this and with his next victim he simply cut through her clothes and allowed for no obstructions.

On one hand, his patience with Nichols (he did not lose his temper and start cutting or stabbing madly) stands in total contrast to what we see with Tabram. On the other hand, the evidence in the Nichols case indicates he has probably murdered before, but not in the method he adapted with the 'Ripper' crimes.

What do you think?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

I think you make some very sound observations, although I am hesitant about the acceptance of a learning curve that begins without the "trademarks". I think that the direction of the first abdominal cut is perhaps a sign of his still finding his way...as you suggested with Pollys access situation, and the remedy that he found in that Hanbury backyard. I liked the patience comment you made though, clearly not a part of Martha's murder. There seems to be some evidence that he rips both upward or downward on the first long cuts into the midsection.

Because the initial opinions of his work was that of a man with some training, knowledge and or skill,...Im inclined to think his beginnings were with corpses, not living humans. I believe that the warmth of the organs he held was quite a contrast to cold ones from a cadaver....I think thats why he handles so much inner matter. I think he finds the warmth comforting.. or something like that.

Whatever I feel aside, Jack the Ripper as prescribed by the Canonicals didnt stab anyone to death....he overpowers, then more stylishly, severs the main arteries in the neck to kill his victims. And that whole process is only to facilitate the real main course, which are the abdominal mutilations.

Best regards TW.