Ripper Victim?

[Chava]

The picture suggests a somewhat engorged lower face, and her tongue can be clearly seen protruding slightly between the teeth. The PM does snot suggest she died of strangulation. However, what he does say is that the stab to the heart 'would have been sufficient to cause death'. Which it would. There is no inquest evidence of Eddowes, Stride or Nicholls having been strangled. although Llewellyn mentions some pre-mortem bruising around the neck that suggests something of that nature. Chapman, however, does show evidence of strangulation, although her heart was clearly beating when she was killed, because there is trace arterial splatter on the fence.

Chapman was the nearest to Tabram in terms of her physicality. She, also, was fairly heavy-set and short. This might mean nothing, but I find it interesting nevertheless.

If I were arguing against Tabram being a Ripper victim, I would point out that holding a lower arm like a bar across the throat would keep the victim upright and in a position to be stabbed. So I don't know if this possible evidence of strangulation is particularly useful. However I do believe, looking at the photograph, that she was partially strangled before she died. She died from a knife wound. And that a variation of this was present at

[Malcolm X]

i quote:-

``The MO reflects what the killer had to do to commit the crime. This includes everything from luring and restraining his victim to the way that he actually murders her. A serial killer's MO can change over time. Essentially, he learns from past mistakes and improves with time.``

Signatures include posing, concealing victims, or inserting objects in the bodies after death for the killers gratification. As a killer needs to punish and degrade victims intensifies as they may develop unique preferences....the Signature is harder to define and to notice, quite a few killers dont have a signature...

[Shelley]

sorry no, you never said a Ripper did you, you're moving the goal posts again....you said a disurbed mind of a killer.........the Zodiac was a killer!

Malcom x,
With all due respect i did no such thing as move a goal post i said....The mind of a disturbed killer with emphasises on the 'mind ' i do not dispute that the Zodiac killer is a killer Or that JTR is a killer there is no goal in that as you speak of what is the goal is the differences in mind to that of The Zodiac Killer and The JTR Killer i see there is petty 1 word here & 1 word there picking ones of which have no focus on the Whitechapel murderer. The Mind of the Zodiac Killer and The Mind of the Ripper work differently & that is not just attributed to JTR....it includes other ripper killings too.

My Question is...Do you have a problem with me mentioning The Whitechapel murderer?

All the Best Malcom

Shelley

[Ally]

What "experts" exactly have said that the MO does not change? Every "expert" I have ever read has said that MO can and does change, it is only the signature that does not. And even that, I'd argue with.

[Malcolm X]

Malcom again you are mistaking MO for signature. The Zodiac Killer just killed....He was not a Ripper

sorry no, you never said a Ripper only did you, you're moving the goal posts again.....the Zodiac was a killer and that's what your post was refering too!................ not specifically to JTR, and dont laugh at me, i'm not a fool.....serial killers vary their M.O .....or do you want me to upload proof

[Shelley]

no not at all, Zodiac and a few others vary their M.O quite a lot...it is not uncommon.

Malcom again you are mistaking MO for signature. The Zodiac Killer just killed....He was not a Ripper

Also main MO is what actually kills the person.

[Jeff Leahy]

Pirate,
Not nothing exactly or like it. All professionals say that MO & Signature does not change, the learning curve that you may be reffering to is simply ' adpations/extentions ' on an already existing established signature, note that the professionals agree that the disturbed mind of the killer...Does NOT change. Do not indeed be misguided by this fact.

As I said in my first post. Its ground this thread has covered a number of times. With everyone seemingly in there original positions.

While I agree the basic needs of the killer will be consistent, as will be there mental state. Developments or progressions in Jacks MO are self evident. Even if you only include Mary, Annie and Eddowes.

The difference between Stabbing and Ripping has also been discussed at length. I simply feel (my opinion) both arise from practical purpose rather than having significance in themselves. If you target the body through clothing no matter how your mind set says RIP, you wouldn't get very far. Stabbing is the only practicle avenue open to you.

All the best

Pirate

[Shelley]

perrymason Hi Shelley

You're in good company with that line I made bold....the coroner at Pollys Inquest suggested that the reason we see the move to a backyard in Hanbury for the next crime is that he discovered he didnt have sufficient privacy or time to complete his intended act in the streets. The medical authority believed that the reason Jack killed those two women was to access and cut open their abdomens. There is even suggestion that the uterus thats taken from Annie was the intended target.

Jack killed to do things to a corpse....Martha was killed nothing more

Your in good company with that comment Michael.

For the record too : Stabbing Tabram in an attempt to open her up didn't work, so the killer had a re-think when it came to Nicholls.......Is Lame and at the same time very amatuerist

Cheers

Shelley

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

One thing I wont back off on is that Annies killer had a sophistication to his technique and some anatomiccal knowledge and knife use experience

But none of the "sophistication" or experience actually demonstrated by those two murders couldn't have been acquired through practice during his murderous career. There was nothing that would mark him out as a ready-made product and thus render him an oddity amongst serial killers. Quite the reverse, to my mind.

By suggesting Martha as a learning kill you are suggesting a emotional wildman like someone who stabs 39 times turns into an amateur field surgeon in a month.... as a result of experiences gained by killing Martha

But either or both of those characteristics may be erroneous. There's nothing about the "emotion" evinced by the Tabram murder that couldn't be explained away by the known fact that a serial killer's early offences will often be unplanned, haphazard affairs, and I don't see anything remotely indicative of a "field surgeon" at work in the Chapman murder, amateur or not.

Not one element of Ripper kills is present in Marthas murder

I disagree. Killing and mutilating prostitutes with a knife in the same concentrated locality is almost uniform in contrast to the diversity displayed by other serial killers.

Martha was killed, nothing more

I think nearly 40 stab wounds would qualify as "something more".

Best regards,
Ben

[Malcolm X]

Pirate,
Not nothing exactly or like it. All professionals say that MO & Signature does not change, the learning curve that you may be reffering to is simply ' adpations/extentions ' on an already existing established signature, note that the professionals agree that the disturbed mind of the killer...Does NOT change. Do not indeed be misguided by this fact.

no not at all, Zodiac and a few others vary their M.O quite a lot...it is not uncommon.

[Shelley]

Michael writes:

"Martha was killed close to the Ripper crimes...thats all they have in common."

Apart from them all being prostitutes, them all being killed by knife, them all having a cut to the lower body, them all being killed at weekends, them all being killed in secluded spots, them all dying silently or almost silently, them all being in their forties (Kelly excepted), them all being lodgers (except Kelly) and them all being well aquainted with booze and them all dying at nighttime or in the early morning you would be right here!

The best,
Fisherman

Fisherman,
Yes, they were all killed by a knife, but it is how the knifework was used too. And Tabram the same as Kelly was killed in a building. They were not prostitutes, they were part time prostitutes. I am inclined to agree that Tabram was killed close to the Ripper killings and that is all there is in common.

Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes were killed out in the open. Although Chapman was killed closer to home. These same 3 of the canocials had thier clothing lifted up, Tabram did not.
The differences being that the clothing was moved by the killer in the canocial lists , not in Tabram's. There are too many differences to that of Tabram to the others within the canocial listings.

Well said Michael! Just the point here needed, even as a reminder!

P.S Although i am inclined to think that JTR was disturbed in his acts with Polly Nicholls.

Hi Shelley,

You're in good company with that line I made bold....the coroner at Pollys Inquest suggested that the reason we see the move to a backyard in Hanbury for the next crime is that he discovered he didnt have sufficient privacy or time to complete his intended act in the streets. The medical authority believed that the reason Jack killed those two women was to access and cut open their abdomens. There is even suggestion that the uterus thats taken from Annie was the intended target.

Jack killed to do things to a corpse....Martha was killed, nothing more.

Best regards Shelley.

[Malcolm X]

Martha's killer is almost ``Neaderthal``, he's very simplistic and in a rage.. he's a million miles away from JTR....Tabram reflects no methodology at all, he's a street thug !

a steep learning curve? yes maybe, but it would need to be almost vertical ...possible yes, but highly unlikely.

most prostitutes hang around too long in secluded localities, it's to avoid the police, exactly the same today.......all in that agegroup, aquainted with booze, well what, today they're all much younger and aquainted with Crack Cocaine/heroin, they're all down and out thus prostitutes, they cant get regular employment because of their lifestyles/habits......perfect for JTR and any other killer out on the prowl

killed on the weekends, again well what; this is the best time to kill anyway, more prostitutes around...plus the killer might not be working, he can stay up very late!

the victims have one thing in common:- they're out on the streets on their own, at totally the wrong time of night...nothing more, any one of these victims could have been ``Lady Jane Montague``....if she was foolish enough to be lurking in Berner St on her own, be careful here.... he did not target prostitutes, he targeted women on their own; in his kill zone..................it just so happens ``obviously`` that 90% of them were on the game....he was an opportunist, a Lion lurking in deep grass by a watering hole in the Serengeti...............ooh i like that

[Shelley]

Exactly Ben. The learning curve happens with each attack. You learn by experience. It has nothing to do with time.

All best

Pirate

Pirate,
Not nothing exactly or like it. All professionals say that MO & Signature does not change, the learning curve that you may be reffering to is simply ' adpations/extentions ' on an already existing established signature, note that the professionals agree that the disturbed mind of the killer...Does NOT change. Do not indeed be misguided by this fact.

Hi Ben,

One thing I wont back off on is that Annies killer had a sophistication to his technique and some anatomiccal knowledge and knife use experience. The first two victims in the Canon have those opinions entered as evidence by the medical authorities that actually attended those victims.

By suggesting Martha as a learning kill you are suggesting a emotional wildman like someone who stabs 39 times turns into an amateur field surgeon in a month.... as a result of experiences gained by killing Martha. Thats nonsense my friend.

Not one element of Ripper kills is present in Marthas murder, nor is one element of hers in a Ripper murder.

Jack the Ripper killed so he could Rip....I dont know what that seems to be so unacceptable to you and others...its clearly the case in 80% of his attributed deaths...and has nothing to do with Martha Tabram, or Liz Stride for that matter.

Killing was never the goal of Jack the Ripper..it was a step towards the goal.

Best regards Ben