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  • Coles Case

    You are invited to vote Paddy
    31
    Yes
    45.16%
    14
    No
    54.84%
    17

  • #2
    Might be worth adding an "unsure" option
    http://www.taraforum.com/

    Comment


    • #3
      If it was a sliding scale where:
      1 = definitely not
      5 = unsure
      10 = definitely guilty
      Then I could give it 7.
      But on a straight yes or no I wouldn’t like t vote.

      Comment


      • #4
        No Limit

        Thank you Ali & Lechmere.

        No worries. The poll doesn't have a time limit, so should you reach a decision, feel free to cast your vote anytime.

        Paddy

        Comment


        • #5
          I cannot vote because there's no half-way house option.

          On the evidence I have read, I'd say probably Sadler, but just possibly someone else, and remotely that person being JtR (I think Alice McKenzie a more certain bet for him, if anyone though).

          Phil

          Comment


          • #6
            I would say Coles is the most likely, outside of the C5, to have been Jack's work.

            Inconsistencies: yes.

            But, cutting the throat while on the floor with the body titled to avoid blood stains is in place in this murder. Clearly, whether this man intended on mutilations or otherwise is not an issue here as he didn't have time. I like this one as the work of Jack.

            Was it Sadler? Drunk men have killed before, and actually dismembered bodies.

            Apparently Sadler was at sea at the time of 4 of the murders. Has anyone looked a touch further into this? Is it watertight?

            Comment


            • #7
              It may be interesting to note that Macnaghten seemed to think that Sadler killed both McKenzie and Coles, partly because of the way their throats were cut (or stabbed). Of course, his suspect was dead by the time of these murders.

              Swanson took a special interest in the Coles murder; personally handling the investigation and following up on Sadler's activities months later.

              I have no idea who killed Francis Coles, but FM makes some lucid points.
              Best Wishes,
              Hunter
              ____________________________________________

              When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Hunter View Post
                It may be interesting to note that Macnaghten seemed to think that Sadler killed both McKenzie and Coles, partly because of the way their throats were cut (or stabbed). Of course, his suspect was dead by the time of these murders.

                Swanson took a special interest in the Coles murder; personally handling the investigation and following up on Sadler's activities months later.

                I have no idea who killed Francis Coles, but FM makes some lucid points.
                Sadler's an interesting fella, Hunter.

                Proving to his wife that he can sneak up on someone, and wanting to take her to a murder site.

                Leaving her in August 1888.

                The whole Coles affair.

                And so on.

                Seems the only thing that exonerates him is being aboard SS Winestead, although reading through the JTR forums site it seems no one has been able to prove this.

                Surely it can't be too difficult to obtain sailing dates for the ship and an understanding of whether or not Sadler was aboard.

                I have a bit of time on my hands at the moment, so think I'll have a crack at obtaining the records.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I said no but that doesn't mean that I think she was killed by JtR.

                  In The Encyclopedia of Unsolved Crimes, I notice that the Coles murder is a separate entry while MacKenzie is only mentioned in the JtR article.
                  This my opinion and to the best of my knowledge, that is, if I'm not joking.

                  Stan Reid

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Hunter View Post
                    It may be interesting to note that Macnaghten seemed to think that Sadler killed both McKenzie and Coles, partly because of the way their throats were cut (or stabbed). Of course, his suspect was dead by the time of these murders.

                    Swanson took a special interest in the Coles murder; personally handling the investigation and following up on Sadler's activities months later.

                    I have no idea who killed Francis Coles, but FM makes some lucid points.
                    Hi Hunter,

                    Frederick Wensley also took an interest in the Coles Case, if not Sadler. He knew the young police officer who found the body, and who just missed collaring the killer. According to the future Chief Constable this near miss prayed upon the young police officer's mind for the few years left to him - he was killed in another police - criminal confrontation about two or three years later. See Wensley's Memoirs for the story.

                    Jeff

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mayerling View Post
                      Hi Hunter,

                      Frederick Wensley also took an interest in the Coles Case, if not Sadler. He knew the young police officer who found the body, and who just missed collaring the killer. According to the future Chief Constable this near miss prayed upon the young police officer's mind for the few years left to him - he was killed in another police - criminal confrontation about two or three years later. See Wensley's Memoirs for the story.

                      Jeff
                      Mayerling,
                      It was nine years later, actually. PC Ernest Thompson who discovered Coles' body and saw her open one eye and stare up at him as she died was killed in 1900 when he tried to intervene in a disturbance at a coffee stall in Commercial Road- ironically, by knife.

                      I like the Ripper for the killer of Frances Coles. However it competes with James Kelly being one of my favorite suspects, for if he was the Ripper he could not have been in the country at the time to have killed her. My other favorite suspect is William Bury, who was dead (hanged) by the time of this murder. But I only entertain those two as suspects when I'd really like everything to be neatly wrapped up. Who I really believe the Ripper was is that maddening person known as "suspect unnamed."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by kensei View Post
                        Mayerling,
                        It was nine years later, actually. PC Ernest Thompson who discovered Coles' body and saw her open one eye and stare up at him as she died was killed in 1900 when he tried to intervene in a disturbance at a coffee stall in Commercial Road- ironically, by knife.

                        I like the Ripper for the killer of Frances Coles. However it competes with James Kelly being one of my favorite suspects, for if he was the Ripper he could not have been in the country at the time to have killed her. My other favorite suspect is William Bury, who was dead (hanged) by the time of this murder. But I only entertain those two as suspects when I'd really like everything to be neatly wrapped up. Who I really believe the Ripper was is that maddening person known as "suspect unnamed."
                        I think we have a man who kills strangers in dark corners, as opposed to family.

                        In all likelihood the man in question is 'suspect unnamed'.

                        But based on the evidence, the known men who fit are certainly Grainger and possibly Sadler.

                        Edited to add: except it seems Grainger was in an asylum when Coles was killed!
                        Last edited by Fleetwood Mac; 09-06-2011, 01:27 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post
                          I think we have a man who kills strangers in dark corners, as opposed to family.

                          In all likelihood the man in question is 'suspect unnamed'.

                          But based on the evidence, the known men who fit are certainly Grainger and possibly Sadler.

                          Edited to add: except it seems Grainger was in an asylum when Coles was killed!
                          Although it is curious that Grainger was removed to an asylum, the one and only time there is evidence of him being in an asylum, on the day Coles was killed.

                          And, curiously, Graham was attacked on the morning of Feb 10 and Grainger went on trial on Mar 27. When they say in Banstead Asylum from February 12 - March 26, is there any chance the Pall Mall Gazette has the wrong year, i.e. 1895 and not 1891?
                          Last edited by Fleetwood Mac; 09-06-2011, 01:51 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Nasty sailors abound...

                            But based on the evidence, the known men who fit are certainly Grainger and possibly Sadler.
                            Grainger was too tall and skinny(like Le Grand), at least if we assume Schwarz or Lawende saw the fiend. We're dealing with a shorter, possibly even stocky individual like Blotchy perhaps....

                            Sadler was beaten to a bloody pulp and drunk as a hoot owl, this doesn't necessarily rule him out for Coles, but does lend a great deal of doubt...

                            I tend to agree with you guys that say "the unknown man from Whitechapel" or even better "person or persons unknown".

                            By the way, I don't think the 5'4" 120 lb. (8.5 stone) Feigenbaum strong enough to be the ripper. But I'm not against a rough, short sailor...

                            Greg

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi Greg, the more I read and re-read the murder of Frances Coles, the more I'm convinced Sadler killed her. That was his footsteps Thompson heard.
                              Grainger was a good suspect, even excellent, or so it seemed. I agree he doesn't fit the witnesses descriptions, but more importantly, the sequence of events (what led to the stabbing of Alice Graham, I mean) has nothing to do with the Ripper MO.
                              Last edited by DVV; 01-31-2012, 12:16 AM.

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