Was Mackenzie a copycat?

[lynn cates]

murders

Hello John. Thanks.

I should have said London. Many of the ladies were not really in Whitechapel when they died.

If you read the period papers, there were murders every month. Eight is too modest.

Cheers.
LC

[DRoy]

Michael,

I didn't want to get in to all the particulars and actually commit to an opinion because I honestly don't know if she was or wasn't. I understand and appreciate the reasons why she would or wouldn't be considered a 'Ripper' victim.

My point was I don't think it should be easily dismissed simply because she wasn't considered a canonical.

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

That being said, there are enough similarities to some of the murders that were attributed to 'Jack' to at least consider MacKenzie as a possible victim of the 'Jack'.

Cheers
DRoy

The only problem I have with the above DRoy is.....where the hell was he for all those months? He kills 2 women within 2 weeks, then he goes dormant until Alice? Or, if he kills Kate as well....same question.

It seems to me that the fellow who killed Polly and Annie must have been at some psychological tipping point when crimes like the Tabram murder shifted the weight beyond his control. I think that why 2 in around 10 days....he finally did it and he liked doing it. So why stop? The "heat"? Nonsense..that man killed a woman in the street and slit her open....he isnt conscious of the risks hes taking. Or he doesnt care about them.

So...why not another in a week or so after Annie? Ask Lynn Cates....he may have an idea about that. If the man that killed those women stopped because he could no longer kill....jail, incarceration, suicide...then Alice would have to be a "copycat" of sorts, wouldnt she?

Hard to imagine that someone who had the desire or the will to murder someone wouldnt be inspired by some of the Rippers acts.

Cheers DRoy

[Phil H]

Each to his own FM - suffice it to say you don't convince me.

Phil

[Fleetwood Mac]

I must disagree Gary.

If Kosminski were the Ripper, as an example, he might have had cunning, but I don't see him understanding concepts such as modus operandi, and thus being able to alter his methods.

Some who has, today, watched CSI, Morse or prime Suspect might know about such things. in the LVP they did not. Indeed, I doubt the police in 1888had fully worked it out - in terms of implications.

Phil

Which makes absolutely no sense.

As far as I can see, Garry is talking about instinct; and you counter this with learning/reasoning on the back of a sub-standard television programme.

I would imagine that the instincts that led Jack the Ripper down a path were of the same nature that led Peter Sutcliffe down a path.

It has been known for centuries that people are activated by fear and pride, and that is not about to change anytime soon.

[DRoy]

Mike,

I believe that the most reasonable approach to solving the mystery that is the Jack the Ripper cases is one that views these cases as independent murders, then marries one victim with another based primarily on what the killer did in each case. Specifically. When there are dramatic deviations the case file needs to be left as a standalone.

Agreed. The difficult part as a student is coming in and doing just that when history says it is the canonical 5 at least.

In the worst district perhaps in the UK at the time, with the poorest people, severe overpopulation, and a large and often inebriated street population wandering in the dark, one that is comprised of faceless, forgotten people....I can see violent crimes like some of these occurring quite naturally.

Also agree with you here. The problem being that anyone cut with a knife was attributed to 'Jack' until proven otherwise instead of it being the other way around.

That being said, there are enough similarities to some of the murders that were attributed to 'Jack' to at least consider MacKenzie as a possible victim of the 'Jack'.

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Don't forget a non-existent murder got invented (Fairy Fay) - as if there ween't enough - so anything is possible.

Is the possibility of multiple murderers really so unthinkable?

We accept in a general sort of way that Smith, Tabram, Mckenzie, Coles and others might be (probably are in some cases) victims of someone other than "Jack". We also accept that the Torso Killer is a different individual. So a principle is established.

I see clearly three of the canonicals can be linked (Nichols, Chpaman, Eddowes), but I do not discount one-off domestics for Stride and Kelly. We know there was another "domestic" on the night of Stride's death.

The press-hype around the Whitechapel killings could surely have brought killers to the area (after all the total number of deaths simply depends on where you draw the boundaries). Add to that possible copy-cats, using the ripper as cover for their own homicides - which is surely not impossible.

I honestly don't think teh concept of multiple killers is that astonishing. maybe not recognising it is part of our problem.

Phil

I would agree with you here Phil, and in terms of an actual Canonical Group you may be comforted to know at least one expert Ive spoken with on this matter agrees with those 3 victims as the total. There are characteristic differences with the Eddowes murder that prevent myself and other from associating her with the previous murderer outright, but there is no denying the similarities. Its close....but no cigar, as we N. Americans put it.

The Whitechapel Murder file contains what is it....13 unsolved murders over the period of some 5 years or so? Im sorry I cant recall specifically the number of files offhand. At least 11 I believe. They include some Torsos.....which I would associate with a lone killer. Thats one. Lets use the Canonical Group of three as one spree..thats 2. Mary Kelly was very probably killed by someone close to her and this person neednt have killed before or after...in that, there is ample evidence that the killer did not mutilate the corpse with any preset plan, in fact he abandons acts midstream. He seems a novice, and at times, an angry one at that. So thats 3 then. Stride may have been a case of the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong bloke....but we dont need to assume this man killed as a general rule based on any known evidence....Thats 4......and the evidence within the Tabram case seems to suggest 1 or 2 killers. Thats 5 or 6.

And we still have victims to account for. Even if one of the remaining murderers kills another of the unsolved murders as well, thats still well in excess of 6 men, at least, who would be guilty of murder. All living in or around the area at the same time,....all the victims from the poorer classes,....and the women dispatched primarily with strangulation and knives.

I believe that the most reasonable approach to solving the mystery that is the Jack the Ripper cases is one that views these cases as independent murders, then marries one victim with another based primarily on what the killer did in each case. Specifically. When there are dramatic deviations the case file needs to be left as a standalone.

In the worst district perhaps in the UK at the time, with the poorest people, severe overpopulation, and a large and often inebriated street population wandering in the dark, one that is comprised of faceless, forgotten people....I can see violent crimes like some of these occurring quite naturally.

Cheers Phil

[DRoy]

John Wheat,

Hey Bud, nice to see you outside from the you-know-who thread! That isn't sarcasm by the way.

To clarify things I think the idea that eight seperate individuals were responsible for the Whitechapel murders as has been suggested in this thread is highly unlikely.

I agree with you. Eight seems a little much especially considering most believe in the 'canonical' being from one hand. However, I do think we all should consider the idea that not every murder attributed to 'Jack' should necessarily be considered the absolute truth as those opinions differed even from the most senior officials.

Cheers
DRoy

[Jon Guy]

Hi Greg

Hey all, Perhaps the murder binge was a result of the “Jekyll and Hyde” effect…?

From memory, I don`t think Jekyll and Hyde play was doing that well ticket wise at the time of the murders. I think they may have even closed the show due to poor ticket sales. Could be wrong here but I don`t think it was in the public consciousness like we imagine it.

[GregBaron]

Nutjobs and nutters...

Yes a veritable broadway musical of serial killers traipsing across the stage. Shall we give them all umbrellas and have them perform Singin in the Rain?
Just kidding-sorry couldn't resist.

Tis true Abby…..I’d love to see Monty Python do a musical…

Actually, there were more. Have a go at the police reports in the papers.

Hey all, Perhaps the murder binge was a result of the “Jekyll and Hyde” effect…?

Maybe the madness of the play pushed some borderline nutters over the edge…



Greg

[Phil H]

Don't forget a non-existent murder got invented (Fairy Fay) - as if there ween't enough - so anything is possible.

Is the possibility of multiple murderers really so unthinkable?

We accept in a general sort of way that Smith, Tabram, Mckenzie, Coles and others might be (probably are in some cases) victims of someone other than "Jack". We also accept that the Torso Killer is a different individual. So a principle is established.

I see clearly three of the canonicals can be linked (Nichols, Chpaman, Eddowes), but I do not discount one-off domestics for Stride and Kelly. We know there was another "domestic" on the night of Stride's death.

The press-hype around the Whitechapel killings could surely have brought killers to the area (after all the total number of deaths simply depends on where you draw the boundaries). Add to that possible copy-cats, using the ripper as cover for their own homicides - which is surely not impossible.

I honestly don't think teh concept of multiple killers is that astonishing. maybe not recognising it is part of our problem.

Phil

[John Wheat]

To clarify things I think the idea that eight seperate individuals were responsible for the Whitechapel murders as has been suggested in this thread is highly unlikely.

[Jon Guy]

Lets not forget murderers William Bury, William Seamen and George Chapman who were also roaming around the area, if not involved in the Whitechapel murder cases. Will be a few others as well.

[DVV]

Hi John


Are you sure it's eight ?
I thought Isenchmid killed twice...

Cheers

[John Wheat]

To Lynn

I think the idea that there were more than eight killers in Whitechapel at one time is a ridiculous notion.

Cheers John