Was Mackenzie a copycat?

[DVV]

Acquittal means innocence in law, but not necessarily in fact.

Hi Colin,

that's true, that's wise. And Sadler is still the prime suspect in that case.

Best regards

[Phil H]

Assailant #1 kills Nichols and Chapman

Assailant #2 kills Stride, Mackenzie and Coles

Assailant #3 kills Eddowes and MJK

A gang kills Emma Smith

Soldiers kills Martha Tabram

Torso man conducts his madness solo

The remaining outliers are killed by domestics

I find no great problem with this analysis. I'd be interested to know the response of those who always argue that there cannot have been so many mad killers running around at the same time.

At the very least we know that the torso was acting simultaneously - maybe in rivalry - with "Jack". My only quibbles, and they are no more than that, are that I believe Stride might be one of the "domestics" (Kidney) and MJK was, I am increasinly of the opinion, killed by someone intimate with her. So she is probably a domestic too, in my book. Also, I can see an evolution through Nichols and Chapman to Kate Eddowes which would link them.

I think the facial disfigurement of MJK was a highly personal attack by someone who felt aggrieved at or humiliated by her. Eddowes, on the other hand I see as almost "playful" - a joke? a man with an opportunity and a knife? even a message. I would also be prepared to consider that Eddowes killer knew her - I am still intrigued by the possibility that she had worked out who it was. But there is simply not enough evidence to follow that up.

Excellent and useful/constructive discussion.

Phil

[Observer]

Hi David, and Bridewell

I'd agree, Sadler in all probability killed Coles. The only doubt that I have is down to the fact that Swallow Gardens was known by the police to have been used for protitution. Of course Sadler could have known that Coles used this venue for prostitution, and have cornered her there

Regards

Observer

[Bridewell]

Hi Bridewell

Ah, but the case wasn't OFFICIALLY solved.

So the police were obliged to go through the motions.

The case wasn't solved. Full stop. The alternative scenario is that the police knew the identity of the perpetrator of the Whitechapel Murders and kept quiet about it. As they were getting flak from all directions for what was perceived as lamentable failure born of institutional incompetence, a coy reticence of this nature doesn't stack up to my mind.

[Bridewell]

Hi Bridewell,

I meant McKenzie.
Sadler had a motive to kill Coles and probably did it. Not that it is proven, but at least he should be considered the most likely suspect.

Cheers

Hi David,

Totally agree. Sadler is by far the most likely suspect for Coles. Acquittal means innocence in law, but not necessarily in fact.

[Bridewell]

[B]
So with Mckenzie were are left with:

a) it was a murder of a random victim by an unknown hand at least partially copying "Jack's" technique; or

b) she was killed by "Jack" but he was weakened by illness, mental issues or some such problem; or

c) it was a "domestic" (killing by someone who knew Mckenzie) made to look like "Jack's work.

Have I missed something?

Phil

Perhaps (d) she was killed by a fully functioning 'Jack' who was in possession of only a small knife and therefore limited as to what he could do to the body?

[RivkahChaya]

Assailant #1 kills Nichols and Chapman

Assailant #2 kills Stride, Mackenzie and Coles

Assailant #3 kills Eddowes and MJK

A gang kills Emma Smith

Soldiers kills Martha Tabram

Torso man conducts his madness solo

The remaining outliers are killed by domestics

I'll second that.

I know it's hard to do, and I didn't do it until very recently, even though the first time I saw the Miller's Court picture was probably 1990, but if you copy it to whatever picture viewer you have, crop it to just the face, turn it so it oriented upright, and then zoom, so you really look at the mutilations, you realize that they are symmetrical. When you look at the face on the horrible corpse lying on the bed, you can't see any details on the face, and really don't want to look closely, but the fact is that the Eddowes and Kelly killings have in common the fact that the facial mutilations were symmetrical.

Now, I don't have any data on facial mutilations, in regards to how common it is in thrill killings, or on one motive vs. another, and we have no idea what JTR's purpose was, since we don't know who he was, but I do know that when a person is arrested for murder where the corpse has been disfigured, the usual reason for mutilating a face, crushing a skull, or removing a head (and hands as well), is to prevent the victim from being identified, and then connected with the killer. That doesn't mean that the victim and killer had a close, personal relationship, it just means that they may have been seen together, even if it was just leaving a bar together, or that they were distantly related, like the victim being the ex-wife of the killer's wife's brother. When you don't want to be arrested for murder, you try to think of everything.

Anyway, mutilations like that are random. The killer isn't drawing a picture on the victims face, so to speak.

The end result for Mary Kelly is that her face was obliterated, but I'm not sure that's the killer's intention. I think he was marking her. It was just another form of playing with the body, but it was more about "owning" her, than erasing her, if that makes sense. It's sort of the flip-side of taking a trophy.

Now, to be clear, I don't think the killer thought it through like that, but I think that he had some kind of drive, sort of like "I was here," but operating entirely viscerally, not intellectually.

[GregBaron]

The ninth circle...

As I reread the Mackenzie inquest I’m struck by similarities to Stride. Perhaps in this instance he had enough time to begin the mutilations…

Here’s some things that strike me..

A) Similar time of morning
B) Rainy
C) Perhaps pulled to the ground for the strike
D) Blade conceivably duller and shorter than previous rips
E) Throat wound(s) similar length-depth
F) An alley beneath a lamp – an alley/entrance into a yard
G) Body in similar position – on left side head on or near curb, feet toward a wall
H) Bruising on chest/shoulders
I) No blood splatter
J) Nobody hears or sees a thing

Of course there are dissimilarities but it does give one food for thought..


Here’s one way we could play the Clue game…


Assailant #1 kills Nichols and Chapman

Assailant #2 kills Stride, Mackenzie and Coles

Assailant #3 kills Eddowes and MJK

A gang kills Emma Smith

Soldiers kills Martha Tabram

Torso man conducts his madness solo

The remaining outliers are killed by domestics


Whitechapel had certainly entered the ninth circle of hell…




Greg

[Stephen Thomas]

Was not Lawende used as an ID witness at a date subsequent to McKenzie's death? What would that be in aid of if the authorities knew perfectly well that JtR was under lock and key or dead?

Hi Bridewell

Ah, but the case wasn't OFFICIALLY solved.

So the police were obliged to go through the motions.

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Greg. Thanks.

"Only that the canon left nary a tuppence behind."

Ah!

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

Has a link between "Jack" and money been found?

Cheers.
LC

Has a link between the WM and Sein Finn, or The Ochrana ever been found?

[GregBaron]

Tuppence for your thoughts...

Can one grab by the hair or seize by throat for a take down?

I suppose so Lynn but I would think the autopsy or crime scene might indicate
such... Admittedly, I haven't seen a lot of detail concerning
Mackenzie's murder spot...

Has a link between "Jack" and money been found?

Only that the canon left nary a tuppence behind....



Greg

[lynn cates]

money

Hello Greg. Thanks.

Can one grab by the hair or seize by throat for a take down?

Has a link between "Jack" and money been found?

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Please lie down quietly...

Hello Greg. Thanks.

"This is true Lynn but would a copycat know how to throttle/strangle/choke into unconsciousness?"

Did that happen?

"I’m not sure if this was done to Mackenzie. . . "

Good answer!

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn, this may be true, but how else does one get someone to the ground
without screams or signs of a struggle?


Another reason this may not be the ripper's work is below. I believe with Coles and Mackenzie he left some money behind......un-Jack-Like...

In her possession were found a clay pipe often referred to as a 'nose warmer' and a bronze farthing.

Greg

[lynn cates]

The answer is . . .

Hello Greg. Thanks.

"This is true Lynn but would a copycat know how to throttle/strangle/choke into unconsciousness?"

Did that happen?

"I’m not sure if this was done to Mackenzie. . . "

Good answer!

Cheers.
LC