Was Mackenzie a copycat?

[lynn cates]

killers on the loose

Hello John.

"I think the idea that there were as many as eight killers in Whitechapel at one time is highly unlikely."

Actually, there were more. Have a go at the police reports in the papers.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

seriality

Hello Abby.

"Yes a veritable broadway musical of serial killers traipsing across the stage. Shall we give them all umbrellas and have them perform Singin' in the Rain?"

Why are they "serial killers"? If you kill one or even two, that does not make you a serial killer.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

I must disagree Gary.

As an historian, I accept that the basic drives are much the same through time, but they are always filtered through the norms, and culture of particular societies.

Concepts and ideas that have not been given names (by thinkers) may be expressed but will be called by different names, or expressed in different ways.

thus, pre-Freud, people did not tend to think in terms of "sexuality" as we now do. So whatever they might have done or thought it would have been EXPRESSED in a differen way.

If Kosminski were the Ripper, as an example, he might have had cunning, but I don't see him understanding concepts such as modus operandi, and thus being able to alter his methods.

Some who has, today, watched CSI, Morse or prime Suspect might know about such things. in the LVP they did not. Indeed, I doubt the police in 1888had fully worked it out - in terms of implications.

Phil

[Garry Wroe]

I find that reasoning a tad modern ... Simply put, I don't think the late Victorian mind-set was as ours might be.

Human psychology has remained unchanged for thousands of years. The Victorians were subject to the the same drives and emotions as we experience today. Were this not the case, Jack the Ripper would not have come to be regarded as the archetypal serial killer. Since his methods and apparent motivations are reflected in the crimes of Sutcliffe, Samples, Rader, Shawcross and many, many others, there can be no doubt that he was affected by external factors and pressures (a police investigation coming too close to home, for example) in much the same way as are his latter-day counterparts. None whatever.

[Jon Guy]

I think the idea that there were as many as eight killers in Whitechapel at one time is highly unlikely.

Absolutely John.

The idea of 8 murders in Whitechapel at one time is highly unlikely too. It was a rare occurance.

[Jon Guy]

I tend to agree with that.
Sadler is a prime example of a man being in the wrong place at the wrong time, more than once.
I think its time we let him go.

Indeed Jon.

Sadler was paralytic and whomever killed Coles had manoeuvered her to the infamous dark spot at the centre of Swallow Gardens, and had presence of mind to tip the body whilst it was on it`s back when cutting the throat and get away unseen when there was a lot of traffic under that arch

Also, he was set upon in Thrawl Street, and he got into a fight outside the Dock gates and did he pull out the knife that he must have had if had killed Coles. No. because he didn`t have a knife on him. Would a man with such an ungovernable temper not go for his knife?

[John Wheat]

I think the idea that there were as many as eight killers in Whitechapel at one time is highly unlikely.

[Wickerman]

At that precise time Sadler was on his back in the street in front of the entrance to the Docks. A number of policeman saw him staggering around barely able to stand.

My money`s on Cheesecutter man.

I tend to agree with that.
Sadler is a prime example of a man being in the wrong place at the wrong time, more than once.
I think its time we let him go.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Greg
Yes a veritable broadway musical of serial killers traipsing across the stage. Shall we give them all umbrellas and have them perform Singin in the Rain?
Just kidding-sorry couldn't resist.

Hi Abby,

Youre likely not far off even though you had no intention of being serious:

Emma Smith: Street gang ( lots of them around at that time) Single event
Martha Tabram: 1 or 2 Soldiers (1 if he switches to a dagger or bayonet for one stab) Single event
Polly and Annie: Irrevocably linked by the evidence to one killer (That means we have a multiple murderer here...not a serial killer) Double murder
Liz Stride: 1 thug, Single event
Catherine Eddowes: Someone who was evidently impressed by what was done to Polly and Annie, although this man is less skilled. Single event.
Mary Jane: Likely killed by someone in her life, at least partially a personal murder. Single event
Alice Mackenzie: Could be a third event in a Triple Murder scenario, linked with Polly and Annie,...though that assumes their killer stuck around in the East End and was dormant for some months prior. So, likely a standalone, Single event. Intended to mimic the murders of Polly and Annie.
Torsos: Discovered before and after the so-called Ripper murders, so unique that one must imagine that 1 or 2 people did them all. Multiple events.

Since, in my opinion, few of the murders are reflective of a possible serial killer who is killing solely for self gratification and mutilation, other than perhaps the Torso murderer....who behaves quite differently from the alleged Ripper murderer, the actual motives for the other murders, once determined, should shed light on why there seems to be a plethora of unsolved murders in this area at that time.

People balk at the idea that multiple murderers might exist at the same time in the same area, but if you consider possibly different motives for these crimes, the area in which they take place and the time in history when they occur, this may just be a "perfect storm" for murderers.

There is in fact proof that there was more than one murderer in London at the time of Jack the Ripper....so why should people assume that this Jack fellow killed everyone of the victims?

Best regards

[Abby Normal]

As I reread the Mackenzie inquest I’m struck by similarities to Stride. Perhaps in this instance he had enough time to begin the mutilations…

Here’s some things that strike me..

A) Similar time of morning
B) Rainy
C) Perhaps pulled to the ground for the strike
D) Blade conceivably duller and shorter than previous rips
E) Throat wound(s) similar length-depth
F) An alley beneath a lamp – an alley/entrance into a yard
G) Body in similar position – on left side head on or near curb, feet toward a wall
H) Bruising on chest/shoulders
I) No blood splatter
J) Nobody hears or sees a thing

Of course there are dissimilarities but it does give one food for thought..


Here’s one way we could play the Clue game…


Assailant #1 kills Nichols and Chapman

Assailant #2 kills Stride, Mackenzie and Coles

Assailant #3 kills Eddowes and MJK

A gang kills Emma Smith

Soldiers kills Martha Tabram

Torso man conducts his madness solo

The remaining outliers are killed by domestics


Whitechapel had certainly entered the ninth circle of hell…




Greg

Hi Greg
Yes a veritable broadway musical of serial killers traipsing across the stage. Shall we give them all umbrellas and have them perform Singin in the Rain?
Just kidding-sorry couldn't resist.

[Michael W Richards]

Someone who kills in the manner of the murder in room 13 isnt likely to then be guilty later of committing an outdoor murders with less time with the corpse and less resulting damage. Of course, one could say that a killer intent on finding street whores out in the middle of the night earning their money for shelter so he could kill and then mutilate their abdomens isnt likely to seek out his future prey indoors when the prey is already undressed and in bed either.

Nor is that same killer likely to attack someone in a place where he could not hope to mutilate the corpse after the murder.

All Alice Mackenzies death can tell us regarding an alleged Ripper is that if she wasnt killed by the same man who killed the previous fall then there was more than one man at that time who was capable of committing those kinds of acts.

Cheers

[Phil H]

I don't know what you are talking about DVV.

Phil

[DVV]

I'm fine.
And have merely pointed something you've well understood, I'm sure.

[Phil H]

That's why your reply (something like "IF it was the same murderer...") was superfluous.

I think in an open discussion it is for the contributor to determine whether his or her input is superfluous. I questioned and still question the assumption - and questioning is surely still a part of discussion and debate?

I'll avoid troubling you in future if my doing so troubles you.

Phil

[lynn cates]

suspect

Hello David. Thanks.

Yes, and one can see why SY pursued him as "Jack" and Sir MLM maintained he did Coles.

Cheers.
LC