Was Mackenzie a copycat?

[Phil H]

So you have the answer, do you, DVV?

Do share?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike,

On the surface this looks like a perfectly reasonable view to hold, but where is the evidence that 'violent crimes like some of these' (ie unsolved, motiveless knife attacks on adult women) were also occurring quite naturally in this worst district in any of the years before or after the Whitechapel cases from 1888-91?

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

Really narrowing that scope there.......but as you asked, I wouldnt assume at this point that any of the alleged Ripper crimes were motiveless, a motive is required to mutilate a corpse just as it would be to silence a potential threat ... which would lead into my next point, that "unsolved" means just that,... it doesnt mean Phantom Menace.

Colin is your man for stats, Im sure he has the relevant numbers as per your request Caz,.... but if we look for threats as well as attacks, on both men and women, using a knife...then I would imagine those stats would be different.

Instead of being curious why 6 women were brutally murdered between the first of August and the 10th of November, your concern is to isolate these events from the regular "noise" shall we say around Whitechapel, because you believe these are "special", one killer murders. You know full well that there is in no way sufficient hard evidence to link any single Canonical murder to another Canonical murder, let alone all 5 to one person, yet I have to feel that you choose to believe it exists anyway.

In reality they are only special because of the brutality of some of them, not because they are the trail left by a lone blood thirsty ghoul.

The misleading quantifier is really the "unsolved" bit, a truer picture can be seen when all the murders are tallied...including the ones that resulted in charges being laid and trials being held.

I believe one reason these were "unsolved" and remain so is because contemporary and modern investigators, professionals and amateurs andf their guesswork have assumed connections between these cases that within any known evidence, dont exist. Guesswork made the Canonical Group, ....I dont see that anyone vigorously pursued other possible answers at that time, when all the evidence there ever would be was still together and intact...and maybe thats the reason we cant today, the evidence or what is left of it is insufficient to allow for any conclusions.

I suppose Im saying that if people had not been so ready to associate these crimes with each other under one killer, then perhaps they wouldnt all still be unsolved. Part of the reason they remain unsolved is probably because they were, and are, misunderstood.

If these were not one spree by one killer, then you have the kind of violence I suggested erupts from social and economic strife caz....almost predictable. It may be a spike year statistically, but its understandable when you consider Bloody Sunday, the strikes, the murders, the Parnell Commission, the plot to assassinate the Queen during the Jubillee, then Lord Balfour in 1888-1889....these were unusual times. 1887-1889 in particular.

So unusual stats at a mid-point shouldnt be so surprising.

Cheers Caz

[DVV]

So you have the answer, do you, DVV?

Do share?

Sincerely, Phil, I'm a bit disenchanted sometimes.
When it comes (again) to Killeen's bayonet, or to the gang that attacked Smith... (for what ? - that's the question)
I was reading your post on Shakespeare last night.
I was impressed. And thankful.
But how can the same man swallow that ****bayonet and that *****gang that never was ?

Cheers

[Phil H]

I don't accept the bayonet or the gang unequivocally, DVV. Yet those are by far the most usual explanations of those crimes, and in that post my intent was not to get an overall message lost in unnecessarily controversial details.

There are many explanations of the Tabram killing, some sensible, some not so. Yet the idea that she was killed by soldiers, who might wield a bayonet is not too surprising - she was after all in their company earlier, wasn't she?

I don't see her as the victim of one man, I think there were at least two, one of whom finished her off.

I don't see her as a Ripper victim at all.

On Smith, a gang attack gone wrong is not implausible in my eyes. I don't think they intended to kill, but went too far. On the other hand, Smith's own story and the timings of the event don't seem to add up - sop maybe she was covering something (or somebody) up. Out of fear - I don't think she knew she was going to die?

Again, I don't see her as a Ripper victim.

So, I agree their are "complications" in regard to both murders, but sometimes, for the sake of bringing out a point, the conventional wisdom serves a purpose. It did here.

Glad you enjoyed the Shakespeare post.

phil

[DVV]

If De Salvo ad not been caught, some casebookers would see a dozen of different killers behind his crimes.
And that's just an example among many.
On the one hand, I see people claiming that Schwartz has fabricated his story, for a lack of corroboration.
And on the other, they trust Smith.
But who has ever corroborated her story ?
The attack, if she's to be believed, must have been quite nosy, messy, etc.
However, no blood, no clues, no witness.
The police, btw, did not put much faith in her gang explanation, but were to give more credit to Schwartz veracity.

[GregBaron]

Beg borrow or steal...

On Smith, a gang attack gone wrong is not implausible in my eyes. I don't think they intended to kill, but went too far. On the other hand, Smith's own story and the timings of the event don't seem to add up - sop maybe she was covering something (or somebody) up. Out of fear - I don't think she knew she was going to die?

I think DVV has a point here when you consider Smith and a gang. Roving gangs of youth generally have one purpose - to steal. These weary unfortunates weren't carrying around a lot of cash. It doesn't seem a severe beating would be in store for tuppence or so....Also, why attack the genitals, this is a sick sexual act, not typically the province of street gangs..

As you both suggest, all is not what it appears with Smith...

As for Tabram, I'll plead the fifth...



Greg

[DVV]

Hi Greg,

thanks. The Tabram case is equally fascinating.
It gives me real fits, actually.
Soldiers = bayonet.
Bayonet = soldiers
Too bad only one of the two soldiers had a bayonet.
His buddy had just paraded with a penknife in front of the queen.

Cheers

[GregBaron]

Special Branch hit...

Hi Greg,

thanks. The Tabram case is equally fascinating.
It gives me real fits, actually.
Soldiers = bayonet.
Bayonet = soldiers
Too bad only one of the two soldiers had a bayonet.
His buddy had just paraded with a penknife in front of the queen.

Cheers

Obviously a government hit DVV, Martha was selling
state secrets to the Ochranian Fenians...

Greg

[Phil H]

I don't think that a gang attack can be wholly ruled out in regard to Smith.

I could envisage a situation where she had somehow crossed a pimp - withheld money, gone to another bloke - and she was given a violent warning. The stick thrust between her legs could well, IMHO, be a crude sexual insult and reprisal.

She might have concocted details of who and how, when and where, to shield assailants that she knew well.

But we'll never know now, because she took whatever knowledge and secrets she had to her grave.

Easy to dismiss soldiers and Tabram. I'm not sure whether soldiers on a pass out of barracks in 1888 could take their sidearms with them. One may have done, one might not. Or it was a soldier and his civilian friend.

It is also possible that Tabram was another victim of a gang attack - the press hysteria over "Jack" may have put them off after that.

My main contention is, however, that Smith and tabram were not, in my view, Ripper victims. End of story.

Phil

[lynn cates]

De Salvo

Hello David.

"If De Salvo had not been caught, some casebookers would see a dozen of different killers behind his crimes."

Well, there was almost certainly more than just De Salvo involved. or so i have been informed by some diehard afficionados.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Easy to dismiss soldiers and Tabram. I'm not sure whether soldiers on a pass out of barracks in 1888 could take their sidearms with them. One may have done, one might not. Or it was a soldier and his civilian friend.

Someone who wanted to kill Tabram, and who knew that she had spent the evening in the company of soldiers, could introduce the use of a bayonet in order to deflect police attention from someone closer to home. Bayonets were easily obtained - my grandmother used one as a poker.

[DVV]

"When I hear the name Tabram, I reach for my bayonet"

[DVV]

Partial

Hello David.

"If De Salvo had not been caught, some casebookers would see a dozen of different killers behind his crimes."

Well, there was almost certainly more than just De Salvo involved. or so i have been informed by some diehard afficionados.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I know, that's possible. Still he has committed many crimes alone, with different MO.
And as I said, it's one example and there are many more.

Cheers

[lynn cates]

C & C

Hello David. Thanks.

In that case, let's look closer at Chapman and Cream.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Hi Lynn.

What for ?

Now the differences between the murders usually attributed to JtR are not striking enough ?

(Heh-heh)

Cheers