Was Mackenzie a copycat?

[Phil H]

I have noted that Nichols killer was barely interested in her genitals,

That could be because he was disturbed, or possibly because he had not yet worked out that he was interested. Victorian men may have been a lot less familiar than we are with intimate anatomy - until he lifted Polly's skirts he may not have known what he'd find or that what he saw would intrigue him.

whereas Chapman`s killer took them home with him.

Maybe he had had a week to ponder what he MIGHT have done to Polly - what he wished he had done... so Annie met her fate to satisfy his curiousity.

I don't see Chapman as impossibly an evolved MO.

I have noted that the haphazard cuts to Nichols abdomen have little in common with panels of flesh removed from Chapman, which mirror Kelly`s injuries.

I see nothing serious to support a contention that Polly and Annie fell victim to different killers. Thus we need to look for other explanations. Maybe time was a factor.

On the whole I am less inclined these days to see MJK as a Ripper victim though - as Kelly was almost completely deconstructed, coincidence might be a factor.

Phil.

[Jon Guy]

Copycats, in the sense that they mirrored crimes, didn`t exist.
They may do now thanks to Hollywood and celebrity.


Can anyone provide a contemporary example of a copycat killer?


Yes, there are the feeble minded who are influenced but one that mirrors crimes, and not just make a random slash as an after thought like Bury or the Birtley boy.

Any Victorian examples please?

[Jon Guy]

I have noted that Nichols killer was barely interested in her genitals,

That could be because he was disturbed, or possibly because he had not yet worked out that he was interested. Victorian men may have been a lot less familiar than we are with intimate anatomy - until he lifted Polly's skirts he may not have known what he'd find or that what he saw would intrigue him.

whereas Chapman`s killer took them home with him.

Maybe he had had a week to ponder what he MIGHT have done to Polly - what he wished he had done... so Annie met her fate to satisfy his curiousity.

I don't see Chapman as impossibly an evolved MO.

I have noted that the haphazard cuts to Nichols abdomen have little in common with panels of flesh removed from Chapman, which mirror Kelly`s injuries.

I see nothing serious to support a contention that Polly and Annie fell victim to different killers. Thus we need to look for other explanations. Maybe time was a factor.

On the whole I am less inclined these days to see MJK as a Ripper victim though - as Kelly was almost completely deconstructed, coincidence might be a factor.

Phil.

I don`t think Nichols and Chapman were killed by different people.
I was noting the major differences between their injuries.

We don`t need to look for explanations to explain these differences. This is what occurs in the real world with real killers.

I certainly don`t think Kelly was anything other than a Ripper victim.

[caz]

Victorian men may have been a lot less familiar than we are with intimate anatomy - until he lifted Polly's skirts he may not have known what he'd find or that what he saw would intrigue him.

It's a wonder how any of us got here in that case, Phil.

Mind you, you may still have a point. My mum told me that my dad had no idea what to 'do' when they married in the late 1940s, and she had to show him the ropes.

Of course, if the killer was Lechmere, I believe he fathered eleven kids!

I see nothing serious to support a contention that Polly and Annie fell victim to different killers. Thus we need to look for other explanations. Maybe time was a factor.

On the whole I am less inclined these days to see MJK as a Ripper victim though - as Kelly was almost completely deconstructed, coincidence might be a factor.

What, one of the biggest coincidences in the history of violent crime you mean? Surely time could have been a factor that allowed the killer of Chapman to do what was done to Kelly.

Have a look at Robert Napper's outdoor murder of Rachel Nickell (stabbed 49 times I believe) followed by his indoor murder of Samantha Bisset, if you think the differences between Chapman, or even Tabram (stabbed 39 times), and Kelly are truly significant.

If the Ipswich Strangler had stopped killing and never been caught, or if the equivalent of the Whitechapel murders from Nichols to Kelly had happened last year, the police would still have looked at each murder individually, but I very much doubt they would seriously have considered them the work of three or more killers, or tied up with political troubles like the recent Woolwich outrage.

Love,

Caz
X

[Phil H]

It's a wonder how any of us got here in that case, Phil.

I take the point, but men and woman rarely if ever saw each other naked in those times - even recently. Even a working class/unemployed man would retain his shirt as a night shirt. No central heating or heating at all, plus modesty. The woman might well have kept on her petticoat or whatever shewore under her outer layers. They may never have seen each other's genitals in detail if at all.

So when "Jack" lifted the skirts of dying Polly it might have been the first opportunity (even if he wasn't virgin, of course) to examine a woman "down under".

Mind you, you may still have a point. My mum told me that my dad had no idea what to 'do' when they married in the late 1940s, and she had to show him the ropes.

A woman of about 80, whom I knew in the mid 1990s, told me that she had never seen her husband naked in all their married life - and she had kids. That came up in a conversation about how appalled she was to see open mouth kissing on TV - something else she had never done. Different times!

I certainly don`t think Kelly was anything other than a Ripper victim.

I didn't for a moment think you did, Jon! I was simply expressing my view. I don't ask you or expect you to agree.

Phil

[Phil H]

Missed this

What, one of the biggest coincidences in the history of violent crime you mean? Surely time could have been a factor that allowed the killer of Chapman to do what was done to Kelly.

The "coincidence" I had in mind was simply that there are only so many ways to dissect a body/remove flesh from it, and the killer of Kelly may just have happened to do things in a way reminiscent of the killer of Chapman.

Phil

[Jon Guy]

The "coincidence" I had in mind was simply that there are only so many ways to dissect a body/remove flesh from it, and the killer of Kelly may just have happened to do things in a way reminiscent of the killer of Chapman.

Kelly`s body mirrors Chapman body.
Maybe, Kelly`s head is turned the other way but otherwise it`s a mirror image
Even the left hand is placed in the same place.

If it`s just a case of "there are only so many ways .." have you got another example, intestines over the right shoulder ete etc ?

[GregBaron]

Copycat mentality...

Can anyone provide a contemporary example of a copycat killer?

Bundy copycatted John Gerard Schaefer on his double Lake Sammamish murders..

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Long Island killer is copycatting Green River..
Copycats exist but not in great numbers..

By the way Jon, I’m offering these examples but I generally agree with your overall thesis..

With all the talk of differences in the murders, I've yet to hear a valid
motive, sans psychopathy, for the brutal murders of street walkers...


Greg

[Jon Guy]

Thanks for the examples, Gregg. Appreciated. Examples will be few and far between.

But did Bundy copy Schaefer down to details like the positions of the bodies when found or was Bundy just killing two people in one day cos he`d read about it?
Isn`t this more a case of being influenced rather than a copycat?

[Phil H]

In the case of Kelly, and perhaps Eddowes, what I have in mind is a killer seeking to hide his domestic murder as the Ripper's work, by imitating what he has read in the press. So not copy-cat per se, or influenced, but deliberate at second hand.

Not a theory, not definite, just a possibility I hold in mind.

Phil

[GregBaron]

Influence or copy?

Thanks for the examples, Gregg. Appreciated. Examples will be few and far between.

But did Bundy copy Schaefer down to details like the positions of the bodies when found or was Bundy just killing two people in one day cos he`d read about it?
Isn`t this more a case of being influenced rather than a copycat?

This I'm not sure about Jon and you may indeed be correct. He had in fact
read about it in a detective magazine...but from what I recall he did try to copy the details...

I think our copycat idea here is of the type of hoping another will be blamed
for one's crimes...I can think of no examples of this off the top..



Greg

[Michael W Richards]

I think the point regarding the use of skin flaps by Mary Janes killer is really about how the press and the specific details they published about some of the earlier crimes may have influenced actions taken by the killer or killers in later murders. I believe that to be a real possibility myself, perhaps in 2 cases within the Canonical Group.

The issue of the thread is does Alice resemble a Ripper style murder, ..and I would think the answer uniformly should be yes, perhaps with a measure of caution,.. but in general, it does. Its why the Police mobilized their forces once again in a Ripper sized investigation. But perhaps they didnt do so with thoughts that this was the same man that killed the previous Fall...certainly Bond didnt think so. And weve all read the various statements that suggest he was either incarcerated, drowned or institutionalized before Alice was killed.

In essence we have evidence that the contemporary officials must have believed that the actions taken with Alice resembled the actions taken by Jack. But does that mean it was intentionally done?

I think that question and the same one concerning Mary Kelly, and perhaps Kate Eddowes, can be addressed in this manner......it is clear that the murderer of Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman were likely the same person, and the objective of the killing seems to have been to mutilate the freshly made corpse. More specifically, the midsection or abdominal region. Forget about the argument about whether he was after specific organs for a moment and just focus on the objective here,... the cutting open of the murder victim.

If we were to suppose that a man sought out women so he could mutilate them after he kills them,... then how many men are we to suppose also shared that exact same dysfunctional perspective to address the similar, but non-Canonical, murders?

My guess is that even among killers this pm mutilator fellow was unique,.. a unicorn among horses. So acts that were performed on victims not attributed to Jack, but very similar in style and victimology, were either accidentally so, or intentionally so.

I opt for B.

Cheers

[Abby Normal]

Copycats, in the sense that they mirrored crimes, didn`t exist.
They may do now thanks to Hollywood and celebrity.


Can anyone provide a contemporary example of a copycat killer?


Yes, there are the feeble minded who are influenced but one that mirrors crimes, and not just make a random slash as an after thought like Bury or the Birtley boy.

Any Victorian examples please?

I agree completely Jon
I don't know of any killer who tried to make his own crime appear to be the work of another specific killer to deflect blame. In that way I believe that the term copycat does not exist in actuality.

Now of course it is not uncommon for a killer to make a crime appear to be for a different motive like robbery when his real motive was jeoulosy to thow off police. But that is called staging.

Certainly killers as you say can be influenced by other killers as in they have heard about them and wanted to try it too.

I think that mckenzie was either a ripper victim who was interrupted or unrelated and it just appears by chance to be ripper like.

[lynn cates]

Beetmore

Hello Jon. The "Birtley boy," as you call the Beetmore slayer, is a prime example of a contemporary copycat. People were despatched from London to investigate.

And Beetmore is CLEARLY more like a "JTR" killing than Liz was.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon. The "Birtley boy," as you call the Beetmore slayer, is a prime example of a contemporary copycat. People were despatched from London to investigate.

And Beetmore is CLEARLY more like a "JTR" killing than Liz was.

Thanks Lynn.

The Birtley boy was influenced by the Ripper. There is nothing about the victim, injuries, weapon and location of the murder that resembles the Ripper.

Of course, they had to send someone to view the body.

If you read up on the Birtley murder you will see what I mean.