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McKenzie - Ripper or not?

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  • Cogidubnus
    replied
    Me too Gareth...it's the most succinct and well written thing I ever read on the Clay Pipe murder

    All the best

    Dave

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    I'm undecided; but before I read Jon Simons' research, it would have been a simple "no". Not that Jon has totally convinced me, but he has prompted me to re-evaluate McKenzie's case in a new light.

    Leave a comment:


  • sdreid
    replied
    This coming Thursday is the 125th anniversary of the MacKenzie murder. May you rest in peace Alice.

    Leave a comment:


  • lynn cates
    replied
    agreement

    Hello Jon.

    ". . . it's not a given that the bodies were posed. It can be argued that the killer maneouvered them to suit his butchery."

    What? We agree? Next up, parousia. (heh-heh)

    Cheers.
    LC

    Leave a comment:


  • lynn cates
    replied
    striking a pose

    Hello Wyatt. Thanks.

    Well, that's assuming a rather loose interpretation of posing. One had legs open, one had a leg straight and one bent. Liz, not at all.

    So if ANY leg position counts as posing, they were all posed.

    Cheers.
    LC

    Leave a comment:


  • Jon Guy
    replied
    Hi Wyatt

    Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
    her killer was having to hold her down,
    I agree that the above is a very relevant point.
    The finger marks on the abdomen, and especially the throat wound, indicate she wasn`t incapacitated as such.
    Then again, if the throat cut to Eddowes and Kelly had been made with a smaller knife as used with McKenzie, and not the long bladed knife, then they too may not have died quite so quickly.

    Keppel has excellent credentials as both a criminologist and detective, and he is a well-known expert on serial killers. I see no reason to doubt his professional judgment on something as basic as the sexually degrading posing of bodies in a murder series.
    I don`t know much about Keppel but as basic as it may seem, it`s not a given that the bodies were posed. It can be argued that the killer maneouvered them to suit his butchery.

    The article states, ”In each case a pattern of successive efforts to pose the body was obvious. These efforts to pose the body became more blatant as the series progressed..
    I`m not sure this is true.
    The body position of Chapman (early in the series) mirrors the Kelly`s body position (later in the series).
    Tabram (possibly first in the series) is found with legs apart, whilst the next murder, Nichols is not.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wyatt Earp
    replied
    Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
    Hello Wyatt.

    "—victim incapacitated prior to being killed (no evidence of strangulation or a punch to the face)"

    This describes Polly and Annie only.

    Cheers.
    LC
    Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post
    Hi Wyatt

    .... as with Kelly and Eddowes.
    Fellas, the relevant signature element is “incapacitation,” not the two things I mentioned, which are simply examples of how that could have been achieved. Sorry, I should have expressed myself more clearly. Keppel et al describe this signature element by writing, “the victims were incapacitated immediately and killed quickly” and “the murders of Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, and Kelly…indicated the killer’s need to immediately incapacitate, subdue, and silence all six victims…” You do not see the same kind of blitz with the McKenzie murder. Some of the throat wounds were tentative or less severe, her killer was having to hold her down, but most importantly, Phillips wrote that there was “no physiological reason why the woman should not have uttered a cry.” That’s not consistent with incapacitation.

    Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post
    She was found on the pavement with her skirts raised to her chin !!!
    Even so, we don`t the victims were posed.
    Keppel has excellent credentials as both a criminologist and detective, and he is a well-known expert on serial killers. I see no reason to doubt his professional judgment on something as basic as the sexually degrading posing of bodies in a murder series. The article states, ”In each case a pattern of successive efforts to pose the body was obvious. These efforts to pose the body became more blatant as the series progressed. In summary, the posing indicated that the killer intentionally left his victims in sexually degrading positions to emphasize that he considered them disposable.” The positioning of McKenzie’s body on its side does not fit in with this progression. Compare with the Ellen Bury murder, which from this perspective appears to be a perfect fit as the final murder in the Ripper series. In her case the sexually degrading posing of the body becomes so extreme that she actually winds up in a bizarre body position.

    Leave a comment:


  • pinkmoon
    replied
    Originally posted by Cogidubnus View Post
    Thanks Jason

    In your ambivalence you make my uncertainty appear positively positive

    All the best

    Dave
    My pleasure Dave like I said I didn't know what to do before I became indecisive

    Leave a comment:


  • Cogidubnus
    replied
    Thanks Jason

    In your ambivalence you make my uncertainty appear positively positive

    All the best

    Dave

    Leave a comment:


  • pinkmoon
    replied
    I used to be indecisive now I'm not sure so I said no

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  • Cogidubnus
    replied
    I've voted "undecided", but if pushed would veer more towards No than Yes

    All the best

    Dave

    Leave a comment:


  • Jon Guy
    replied
    Hi Wyatt

    Originally posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
    It does not, however, contain the following two signature elements we would expect to be present if it were indeed the work of the Ripper:

    —(no evidence of strangulation or a punch to the face)
    .... as with Kelly and Eddowes.


    —sexually degrading posing of the body (body appears to have simply been placed on its side)
    She was found on the pavement with her skirts raised to her chin !!!
    Even so, we don`t the victims were posed.

    Leave a comment:


  • lynn cates
    replied
    P & A

    Hello Wyatt.

    "—victim incapacitated prior to being killed (no evidence of strangulation or a punch to the face)"

    This describes Polly and Annie only.

    Cheers.
    LC

    Leave a comment:


  • Robert
    replied
    Of course, regardless of who we think killed McKenzie, and indeed Kelly, one avenue seems extremely unlikely, and that is that both Kelly and McKenzie are copycats. It would require there to be two copycats - one over the top, and one under the top.

    Leave a comment:


  • Wyatt Earp
    replied
    The McKenzie murder contains just what we would expect a copycat killer to reproduce:

    —cutting of the throat
    —abdominal and genital mutilations
    —abandonment of the body

    It does not, however, contain the following two signature elements we would expect to be present if it were indeed the work of the Ripper:

    —victim incapacitated prior to being killed (no evidence of strangulation or a punch to the face)
    —sexually degrading posing of the body (body appears to have simply been placed on its side)

    I’m referring to the description of the Ripper’s signature developed by Keppel et al in the article we all by now know about.

    The tepid mutilations are also reason to believe it was a copycat killing. In the case of the Ellen Bury murder, there was a strong situational incentive for the killer to tone down the mutilations. There appears to have been no such situational incentive here. Given the quantity of the cuts, we know that the killer had enough time with the body to inflict some major damage, and also to pose the body, but he did not do so.

    For these reasons I think this should be viewed as a copycat killing.

    Leave a comment:

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