McKenzie - Ripper or not?

[jerryd]

After reading through Information on Alice McKenzie and pondering it, I have arrived at a "no" it's not likely she was a victim of the man we call Jack the Ripper.


My no is based on Dr. George Bagster Phillips' inquest testimony on Day 3, Wednesday, August 14th, 1889:

There were five marks on the abdomen, and, with the exception of one, were on the left side of the abdomen. The largest one was the lowest, and the smallest one was the exceptional one mentioned, and was typical of a finger-nail mark. They were coloured, and in my opinion were caused by the finger-nails and thumb nail of a hand. I have on a subsequent examination assured myself of the correctness of this conclusion.

[Coroner] Are the injuries to the abdomen similar to those you have seen in the other cases? - No, Sir. I may volunteer the statement that the injuries to the throat are not similar to those in the other cases.

FINGERNAIL MARKS?

anyone?

curious

Hi curious,

The fingernail marks were, of course, from a hand being placed on her abdomen. Not sure if you're thinking the fingernail marks were the actual cuts to the abdomen. They were not.

Seven inches below right nipple commenced a wound seven inches long, in a downwards direction inclining first inwards then outwards. Deepest at upper part. Wound in abdomen but abdominal cavity not opened. Scoring the right side of abdomen are seven dermal marks tailing inwards to the major wound, and seven similar scorings between this wound and the pubis, one distinctly becoming deeper over the pubis.

There was also a small cut over the mons veneris.

To me, these wounds are of a "doodling" nature, comparable to what the killer of Eddowes did to her face and eyelids. The wounds to Alice's abdomen were all done post mortem and targeted the abdomen and genital area. Her skirt was thrown up to her chin as in other cases. Although the neck wound appears to be different than the other victims, it is similar in that there were two cuts to the throat as in other cases.

[curious]

No Vote -- Fingernail marks

After reading through Information on Alice McKenzie and pondering it, I have arrived at a "no" it's not likely she was a victim of the man we call Jack the Ripper.


My no is based on Dr. George Bagster Phillips' inquest testimony on Day 3, Wednesday, August 14th, 1889:

There were five marks on the abdomen, and, with the exception of one, were on the left side of the abdomen. The largest one was the lowest, and the smallest one was the exceptional one mentioned, and was typical of a finger-nail mark. They were coloured, and in my opinion were caused by the finger-nails and thumb nail of a hand. I have on a subsequent examination assured myself of the correctness of this conclusion.

[Coroner] Are the injuries to the abdomen similar to those you have seen in the other cases? - No, Sir. I may volunteer the statement that the injuries to the throat are not similar to those in the other cases.

FINGERNAIL MARKS?

anyone?

curious

[Charles Daniels]

The details I have read about the case make me struggle NOT to include her as a ripper victim.

The main reason I can see for excluding her is if the person reading the details has a specific suspect in mind whom is not compatible (for one example Druitt, but there are lots of suspects who could not be responsible for Alice)

The fact that she happens a bit later, well, she happens a bit later.
But what happens to her is extremely compelling to include her in the series.

So, what have I missed?

Can anyone talk me out of linking Alice McKenzie to the Whitechapel Murder series?

[Jon Guy]

I realize that Jon, I was addressing the comparison with Bury. I personally believe that whomever killed Kate Eddowes possibly killed Alice. I believe the person who killed Polly and Annie was off the streets after those first 2 murders.

Aha, I thought that with those credentials she might have made your canon, Mike.

[Michael W Richards]

McKenzie had all three components, Mike.

I realize that Jon, I was addressing the comparison with Bury. I personally believe that whomever killed Kate Eddowes possibly killed Alice. I believe the person who killed Polly and Annie was off the streets after those first 2 murders.

[Jon Guy]

For me Harry there needs to be three components....double cut throat, legs splayed, abdominal/pelvic mutilations.

McKenzie had all three components, Mike.

[Michael W Richards]

Interesting that people think that McKenzie was more likely a Ripper victim than Ellen Bury. Even though Ellen Bury's abdominal mutilations were deeper and her face had been disfigured (like Eddowes, Kelly). Does it all come down to the cut throat?

For me Harry there needs to be three components....double cut throat, legs splayed, abdominal/pelvic mutilations.

[Harry D]

Interesting that people think that McKenzie was more likely a Ripper victim than Ellen Bury. Even though Ellen Bury's abdominal mutilations were deeper and her face had been disfigured (like Eddowes, Kelly). Does it all come down to the cut throat?

[jerryd]

Hi Hanway
I was undecided until recently but now I am pretty much convinced she was:

same victimology
same location
same time frame-night
unsolved
killed with knife
throat cut
left carteroid artery severed
two cuts to neck
neck cut while lying on ground
abdomen/pelvic/ privates targeted and cut(ripped)
High level (munroe)police at the time believed she was a ripper victim
Dr believed she was a ripper victim
Found lying on back
And the clincher for me-found with skirt pushed up-like the others, including Tabram.

She was a ripper victim.

Look at the cuts on her abdomen compared to Polly Nichols. They are almost identical except the number of them. Same two directions. Horizontal and vertical! Imagine that.

[John G]

I think I initially voted yes, but now I'm undecided. The difficulty, as I see it, is that McKenzie would represent a major de-escalation, which is problematic considering that JtR seems to have exhibited a pattern of escalating violence.

Okay, you could probably expect a degree of de-escalation from Kelly, however, there was substantially less overkill than even the earlier Whitechapel victims. Nicholls, for instance, suffered very deep abdominal injuries and had been virtually decapitated. In contrast, the abdominal injuries inflicted on McKenzie were somewhat superficial, and the neck injuries were less severe than even Stride. In fact it could be argued that there is little evidence of overkill at all, which is problematic as this seemed to be an obvious signature characteristic of JtR (it's worth pointing out that even with Ellen Bury a deep abdominal wound was inflicted.) And, of course, unlike Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly no organs were removed.

That said, McKenzie was killed in Whitechapel. Moreover, there were two stab wounds in the left side of the neck, and it's been argued that parallel cuts were inflicted on the neck of both Nicholls and Chapman, which seems a little coincidental.

However, if McKenzie was a Ripper victim I think he must have been ill or incapacitated in some way. That at least would explain the 7 month gap since Kelly's murder, and why there may have been no other victims.

[Abby Normal]

Having read the information about George Hutchinson in the preview for Ripperologist 146, I am minded, almost, to revert back to my earlier opinion that Alice was a victim of Jack's.

yes. I actually came to the conclusion she was a ripper victim before the article came out, but it has also bolstered my opinion that she was.

Ive always had hutch and Blotchy 1 and 1a on my least weak ripper suspect list and prior to the article I was leaning toward Blotchy. since the article however, I now lean toward Hutch.

[hanway3]

Having read the information about George Hutchinson in the preview for Ripperologist 146, I am minded, almost, to revert back to my earlier opinion that Alice was a victim of Jack's.

[Abby Normal]

I would say probably not. Insofar that would had he been doing for the previous six or so months.
I understand the possibility that he could have been away- abroad, in prison, laying low etc. And the MOD was similar but not as pronounced as in previous cases.
Until recently I would have said yes. And it would not take a lot of persuading to convince me again that it was a the same person- 'Our Jack'.

Hi Hanway
I was undecided until recently but now I am pretty much convinced she was:

same victimology
same location
same time frame-night
unsolved
killed with knife
throat cut
left carteroid artery severed
two cuts to neck
neck cut while lying on ground
abdomen/pelvic/ privates targeted and cut(ripped)
High level (munroe)police at the time believed she was a ripper victim
Dr believed she was a ripper victim
Found lying on back
And the clincher for me-found with skirt pushed up-like the others, including Tabram.

She was a ripper victim.

[hanway3]

I would say probably not. Insofar that would had he been doing for the previous six or so months.
I understand the possibility that he could have been away- abroad, in prison, laying low etc. And the MOD was similar but not as pronounced as in previous cases.
Until recently I would have said yes. And it would not take a lot of persuading to convince me again that it was a the same person- 'Our Jack'.

[Mayerling]

I have voted "undecided" as

1) I'm not really up on the Alice Mackenzie murder, except it was in 1889.
2) The arguments "for" and "against" are equally balanced to me.

My problem is the "canonical five" (six if we include Tabram) are in a relatively close period of time of four months (August to November 1888). Therefore anything before (Emma Smith) or after (Alice MacKenzie to Frances Coles) is questionable. It is a point that many certainly disagree with, as we know (from cases like "the Yorkshire Ripper" or "Zodiac") that serial killers can operate over years, but the spacing and signatures of those cases remain fairly consistent. MacKenzie and Coles could be copycats.

Yet at the same time, if the Ripper did get briefly incarcerated or somehow physically debilitated (beaten up say for an unrelated reason) he might resume at half strength. The idea voiced before of a drugged Ripper escaping from a madhouse and killing Alice while acting at half speed is not impossible.

So I am undecided, though I suspect I'm closer to "No".

Jeff