Let there be light!

[David Orsam]

Isn't it somewhat redundant to ask a question that we can't possibly know the answer to?

I agree but I wasn't even aware I was asking a question.

What is it you think I'm asking?

[David Orsam]

Here McCarthy explains:

"I was paid 4/6 a week for the room, but rent was 29/- in arrear – the rent was paid to me weekly. The room was let weekly."

But in #604 you told me:

"Incidentally, a weekly rate of 4/6 does not mean the rent was payed weekly, that is just the rate"

[Wickerman]

I am suspicious about the comment myself. Guess it depends on where the refreshment house was located as to whether she would have been known to the likes of Maxwell et al.

The US press accounts often contain more inaccuracies than the local press.

[Wickerman]

But he didn't, did he?

Statement of John McCarthy:

"I sent [Bowyer] for the rent because for some time past they had not kept their payments regularly".

Here McCarthy explains:

"I was paid 4/6 a week for the room, but rent was 29/- in arrear – the rent was paid to me weekly. The room was let weekly."


And in the Telegraph:

[Coroner] "What rent was paid for this room ? - It was supposed to be 4s 6d a week. Deceased was in arrears 29s. I was to be paid the rent weekly. Arrears are got as best you can."

In the former he provides the expected arrangement, while in the latter he adds "supposed to be", and "I was to be", which may indicate he was calling more frequently to prevent the debt getting any higher.
Equally, it could also mean he had not received any rent for weeks.

It's a detail we can't possibly settle at this point in time, but I still don't see any reason to not trust what the dosser told the reporter. For all we know she may have been 8d short of the 4/6 she needed, or she wanted some pence in her pocket for breakfast in the morning, the reason doesn't matter.

Isn't it somewhat redundant to ask a question that we can't possibly know the answer to?

[jerryd]

Sounds suspiciously similar to Stride's Coffee House in Poplar.

But in any case I don't really see how the fact she had once run a refreshment house somewhere unspecified in the East End (if she did) would make her well known. Even Joe Barnett didn't know about it!

I am suspicious about the comment myself. Guess it depends on where the refreshment house was located as to whether she would have been known to the likes of Maxwell et al.

[David Orsam]

David,

Found it. See post #2 by Chris Scott.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....ary+jane+kelly

Sounds suspiciously similar to Stride's Coffee House in Poplar.

But in any case I don't really see how the fact she had once run a refreshment house somewhere unspecified in the East End (if she did) would make her well known. Even Joe Barnett didn't know about it!

[richardnunweek]

Hi..
I always believed Mrs McCarthy and son, were collecting rents, and Bowyer was sent to Room 13, as some residents were concerned,that Kelly was not to be seen., and would not answer the door.?
Regards Richard.

[David Orsam]

if Bowyer collects the rent every morning

But he didn't, did he?

Statement of John McCarthy:

"I sent [Bowyer] for the rent because for some time past they had not kept their payments regularly".

[jerryd]

David,

Found it. See post #2 by Chris Scott.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=11488&highlight=mary+jane+kelly

[Wickerman]

But what would have been the point of him loaning her 8d Jon? In the context of her debt she obviously wasn't paying by the day.

I'm not sure of your question, if Bowyer collects the rent every morning she needs 8d, and as the dosser said, it was 2:00 am when this happened.

Perhaps this was a poor night for clients, or maybe she lied to get a sub from a local dosser she knew. I'm not sure why you think there is no point in this dosser giving/loaning her the price of her room, her debt has no bearing on this.
McCarthy sold her a candle on Wednesday night, regardless that she (according to McCarthy) owed 29s in back-rent.
I wouldn't put a great deal of trust in that claim myself.

There is a similarity here in that Kelly is reputed to have asked for 6d from Hutchinson.

Here's a couple of snippets from East End 1888, concerning Spitalfields:

"...the houses were three storeys high and hardly six feet apart, the sanitary accommodations being pits in the cellars; in other courts the houses were lower, wooden and dilapidated, a stand pipe at the end providing the only water. Each chamber was the home of a family who sometimes owned their indescribable furniture, but in most cases the rooms were let out furnished for 8d a night...." (p.7)

"In the infamous, festering Dorset Street dilapidated 'three storey houses are let out in single rooms. Front rooms 5s. Single back rooms 3s and 4s.' " (p.20)

So the 4/6 p/w, or 8d (approx) per night is not out of the question for the area.

[richardnunweek]

Hi ,
There are reports of Mary Kelly going in to lodging houses in the street, and reports of her putting the agony line over to the men in there , she allegedly often conned money, and it all went on drink.
Regards Richard.

[jerryd]

Are you sure you're not thinking of Stride? (or perhaps the source was?)

Almost positive it was Mary Kelly. I'll see if I can find it. May take a bit.

[David Orsam]

David,

I'll try to locate the source, but it was stated MJK at one time ran a refreshment shop in the East End. It was a newspaper source and it was the only source I have ever seen that mentioned this, so take it for a grain of salt.

If true, that could increase the possibility that she was at least "known" in the area.

Are you sure you're not thinking of Stride? (or perhaps the source was?)

[jerryd]

Well, in fairness, you did say she was a "local celebrity" - others have said similar things in the context of everyone in the Britannia knowing her - and I wanted to try and nail down the sources for it.

David,

I'll try to locate the source, but it was stated MJK at one time ran a refreshment shop in the East End. It was a newspaper source and it was the only source I have ever seen that mentioned this, so take it for a grain of salt.

If true, that could increase the possibility that she was at least "known" in the area.

[Robert St Devil]

Framing Mary Jane Kelly as "popular" poses a contradiction to the belief that Mrs. Maxwell was lying or confused about her sighting. It supports the likelihood more than disproves it. Embellishing her with a local reputation only adds to that support.

I take away, Bridewell, that Mrs. Maxwell is calling Mary Jane Kelly "a nite owl", which wouldn't stray far from the reputation described in Wick's post.