Let there be light!

[Wickerman]

The thing is Jon that brings into sharp focus the fact that only a small handful of people apparently knew anything relevant about Kelly's last day alive to testify at the inquest. How many people apparently spoke to her or saw her on the Thursday? A small handful out of the thousands that you point out the police spoke to.

How many people even said they knew her in the press? A very small number.

I don't really see that Kelly was more than a normal woman (or prostitute) in Whitechapel who knew the normal amount of people living in the surrounding area one would expect her to know. I find it difficult to believe that she was anything approaching an especially "well known" local person.

Thanks for that partial explanation David, I was a little bemused why you were pursuing that line of thought.

Don't you think the question is largely insignificant from the view of the press covering such a horrific murder?
We can't really judge how many people (as if the number matters), truly knew her based on scattered references offered by the press. They are not tasked with proving how popular she was, so we are left to judge by what those accounts say, not by how many accounts there are.

[David Orsam]

Why "by being about in the lodging- house though"? What was MJK doing in the lodging-house if she had her own room?

Visiting a friend staying there?

[David Orsam]

We can't really judge how many people (as if the number matters), truly knew her based on scattered references offered by the press.

I agree. I think that is my point.

[Wickerman]

Surely not. Wouldn't doss money mean money for one night's doss in a lodging house? Would he have really given her 4s 6d for her weekly rent?

Well yes it would, but the dosser being questioned never pays rent, the money he scrapes together to put a roof over his head is "doss money", so in his world everyone pays doss-money.
I can understand that.

Incidentally, a weekly rate of 4/6 does not mean the rent was payed weekly, that is just the rate. It was often collected daily, as some landlords said, better to get your money off these women when they have it (following a night's work) than trust them to save it up for seven days.
Kelly must have payed 8d a day for her room, the dosser previously mentioned may have loaned her the 8d.

Perhaps she was a con artist because she was about 6 weeks behind in her rent, with 29 shillings owing at the time of her death, and if the dosser gave her some "rent money" three weeks before her death she presumably spent it on booze.

I have no doubt she knew how to 'con' money out of men, and let us not forget the only source we have for the amount of debt is McCarthy, who I believe hiked the debt owed to him on the assumption her relatives coming to the funeral will offer to settle any debts she had.
Funny that Barnett makes no mention of them owing rent.
So yes, I think McCarthy may have been an opportunist.

In all seriousness though Jon, if a reporter goes in and asks some dossers if they knew this woman who has just been murdered the answer, which brought a laugh of "who doesn't know her?", could just as easily have been a joke based on the fact that no-one had a clue who she was rather than a serious answer.

Well that interpretation goes against the other replies he received.

Let's put it this way, the evidence based on reports in the press that Kelly was "well known" throughout the area is sketchy to say the least.

Like I said, the press are not challenged to prove how popular she was was. So to some degree the question you are asking cannot be answered to the extent you wish, which in turn made me wonder why you would ask.

[David Orsam]

Kelly must have payed 8d a day for her room, the dosser previously mentioned may have loaned her the 8d.

But what would have been the point of him loaning her 8d Jon? In the context of her debt she obviously wasn't paying by the day.

[David Orsam]

Like I said, the press are not challenged to prove how popular she was was. So to some degree the question you are asking cannot be answered to the extent you wish, which in turn made me wonder why you would ask.

Well, in fairness, you did say she was a "local celebrity" - others have said similar things in the context of everyone in the Britannia knowing her - and I wanted to try and nail down the sources for it.

[Robert St Devil]

Framing Mary Jane Kelly as "popular" poses a contradiction to the belief that Mrs. Maxwell was lying or confused about her sighting. It supports the likelihood more than disproves it. Embellishing her with a local reputation only adds to that support.

I take away, Bridewell, that Mrs. Maxwell is calling Mary Jane Kelly "a nite owl", which wouldn't stray far from the reputation described in Wick's post.

[jerryd]

Well, in fairness, you did say she was a "local celebrity" - others have said similar things in the context of everyone in the Britannia knowing her - and I wanted to try and nail down the sources for it.

David,

I'll try to locate the source, but it was stated MJK at one time ran a refreshment shop in the East End. It was a newspaper source and it was the only source I have ever seen that mentioned this, so take it for a grain of salt.

If true, that could increase the possibility that she was at least "known" in the area.

[David Orsam]

David,

I'll try to locate the source, but it was stated MJK at one time ran a refreshment shop in the East End. It was a newspaper source and it was the only source I have ever seen that mentioned this, so take it for a grain of salt.

If true, that could increase the possibility that she was at least "known" in the area.

Are you sure you're not thinking of Stride? (or perhaps the source was?)

[jerryd]

Are you sure you're not thinking of Stride? (or perhaps the source was?)

Almost positive it was Mary Kelly. I'll see if I can find it. May take a bit.

[richardnunweek]

Hi ,
There are reports of Mary Kelly going in to lodging houses in the street, and reports of her putting the agony line over to the men in there , she allegedly often conned money, and it all went on drink.
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

But what would have been the point of him loaning her 8d Jon? In the context of her debt she obviously wasn't paying by the day.

I'm not sure of your question, if Bowyer collects the rent every morning she needs 8d, and as the dosser said, it was 2:00 am when this happened.

Perhaps this was a poor night for clients, or maybe she lied to get a sub from a local dosser she knew. I'm not sure why you think there is no point in this dosser giving/loaning her the price of her room, her debt has no bearing on this.
McCarthy sold her a candle on Wednesday night, regardless that she (according to McCarthy) owed 29s in back-rent.
I wouldn't put a great deal of trust in that claim myself.

There is a similarity here in that Kelly is reputed to have asked for 6d from Hutchinson.

Here's a couple of snippets from East End 1888, concerning Spitalfields:

"...the houses were three storeys high and hardly six feet apart, the sanitary accommodations being pits in the cellars; in other courts the houses were lower, wooden and dilapidated, a stand pipe at the end providing the only water. Each chamber was the home of a family who sometimes owned their indescribable furniture, but in most cases the rooms were let out furnished for 8d a night...." (p.7)

"In the infamous, festering Dorset Street dilapidated 'three storey houses are let out in single rooms. Front rooms 5s. Single back rooms 3s and 4s.' " (p.20)

So the 4/6 p/w, or 8d (approx) per night is not out of the question for the area.

[jerryd]

David,

Found it. See post #2 by Chris Scott.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=11488&highlight=mary+jane+kelly

[David Orsam]

if Bowyer collects the rent every morning

But he didn't, did he?

Statement of John McCarthy:

"I sent [Bowyer] for the rent because for some time past they had not kept their payments regularly".

[richardnunweek]

Hi..
I always believed Mrs McCarthy and son, were collecting rents, and Bowyer was sent to Room 13, as some residents were concerned,that Kelly was not to be seen., and would not answer the door.?
Regards Richard.