Let there be light!

[David Orsam]

Like I said, the press are not challenged to prove how popular she was was. So to some degree the question you are asking cannot be answered to the extent you wish, which in turn made me wonder why you would ask.

Well, in fairness, you did say she was a "local celebrity" - others have said similar things in the context of everyone in the Britannia knowing her - and I wanted to try and nail down the sources for it.

[David Orsam]

Kelly must have payed 8d a day for her room, the dosser previously mentioned may have loaned her the 8d.

But what would have been the point of him loaning her 8d Jon? In the context of her debt she obviously wasn't paying by the day.

[Wickerman]

Surely not. Wouldn't doss money mean money for one night's doss in a lodging house? Would he have really given her 4s 6d for her weekly rent?

Well yes it would, but the dosser being questioned never pays rent, the money he scrapes together to put a roof over his head is "doss money", so in his world everyone pays doss-money.
I can understand that.

Incidentally, a weekly rate of 4/6 does not mean the rent was payed weekly, that is just the rate. It was often collected daily, as some landlords said, better to get your money off these women when they have it (following a night's work) than trust them to save it up for seven days.
Kelly must have payed 8d a day for her room, the dosser previously mentioned may have loaned her the 8d.

Perhaps she was a con artist because she was about 6 weeks behind in her rent, with 29 shillings owing at the time of her death, and if the dosser gave her some "rent money" three weeks before her death she presumably spent it on booze.

I have no doubt she knew how to 'con' money out of men, and let us not forget the only source we have for the amount of debt is McCarthy, who I believe hiked the debt owed to him on the assumption her relatives coming to the funeral will offer to settle any debts she had.
Funny that Barnett makes no mention of them owing rent.
So yes, I think McCarthy may have been an opportunist.

In all seriousness though Jon, if a reporter goes in and asks some dossers if they knew this woman who has just been murdered the answer, which brought a laugh of "who doesn't know her?", could just as easily have been a joke based on the fact that no-one had a clue who she was rather than a serious answer.

Well that interpretation goes against the other replies he received.

Let's put it this way, the evidence based on reports in the press that Kelly was "well known" throughout the area is sketchy to say the least.

Like I said, the press are not challenged to prove how popular she was was. So to some degree the question you are asking cannot be answered to the extent you wish, which in turn made me wonder why you would ask.

[David Orsam]

We can't really judge how many people (as if the number matters), truly knew her based on scattered references offered by the press.

I agree. I think that is my point.

[David Orsam]

Why "by being about in the lodging- house though"? What was MJK doing in the lodging-house if she had her own room?

Visiting a friend staying there?

[Wickerman]

The thing is Jon that brings into sharp focus the fact that only a small handful of people apparently knew anything relevant about Kelly's last day alive to testify at the inquest. How many people apparently spoke to her or saw her on the Thursday? A small handful out of the thousands that you point out the police spoke to.

How many people even said they knew her in the press? A very small number.

I don't really see that Kelly was more than a normal woman (or prostitute) in Whitechapel who knew the normal amount of people living in the surrounding area one would expect her to know. I find it difficult to believe that she was anything approaching an especially "well known" local person.

Thanks for that partial explanation David, I was a little bemused why you were pursuing that line of thought.

Don't you think the question is largely insignificant from the view of the press covering such a horrific murder?
We can't really judge how many people (as if the number matters), truly knew her based on scattered references offered by the press. They are not tasked with proving how popular she was, so we are left to judge by what those accounts say, not by how many accounts there are.

[Bridewell]

There was also this exchange between Macdonald, and Maxwell.

[Coroner] Did you speak to her ? - Yes; it was an unusual thing to see her up. She was a young woman who never associated with any one. I spoke across the street, "What, Mary, brings you up so early ?" She said, "Oh, Carrie, I do feel so bad."
[Coroner] And yet you say you had only spoken to her twice previously; you knew her name and she knew yours ? - Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house.

I interpret this as indicating that MJK and Maxwell were people who knew each other well by sight as neighbours, but didn't spend a great deal of time in each other's company. The first sentence is particularly interesting IMHO. I think, if she was a truthful witness, that this adds weight to the credibility of her sighting. She noticed MJK because her appearance at that time of day was out of the ordinary. They also each addressed the other by name. That doesn't suggest a case of mistaken identity, but rather a genuine sighting - or a mendacious witness. I see no evidence that she's a liar. Macdonald spoke as he did because her evidence was inconsistent with the likely TOD.

Why "by being about in the lodging- house though"? What was MJK doing in the lodging-house if she had her own room?

[David Orsam]

The rent she paid was due either daily or weekly, sources differ.I'm not sure it is fair to expect a dosser to make the distinction between his "doss-money" and Kelly's rent for her room. Its all the same thing to them who don't care.

Surely not. Wouldn't doss money mean money for one night's doss in a lodging house? Would he have really given her 4s 6d for her weekly rent?

Perhaps she was a con artist because she was about 6 weeks behind in her rent, with 29 shillings owing at the time of her death, and if the dosser gave her some "rent money" three weeks before her death she presumably spent it on booze.

In all seriousness though Jon, if a reporter goes in and asks some dossers if they knew this woman who has just been murdered the answer, which brought a laugh of "who doesn't know her?", could just as easily have been a joke based on the fact that no-one had a clue who she was rather than a serious answer.

Let's put it this way, the evidence based on reports in the press that Kelly was "well known" throughout the area is sketchy to say the least.

[David Orsam]

Well actually David, the police did.

During the whole of yesterday Sergeant Thicke, with other officers, was busily engaged in writing down the names, statements, and full particulars of persons staying at the various lodging-houses in Dorset-street. That this was no easy task will be imagined when it is known that in one house alone there are upwards of 260 persons, and that several houses accommodate over 200.
Times, 12 Nov.

I don't expect Drew is implying he undertook this task himself, he is likely relaying pertinent details that arose from the house-to-house enquiries undertaken throughout Dorset St. and adjoining streets and courts, over that weekend.

The thing is Jon that brings into sharp focus the fact that only a small handful of people apparently knew anything relevant about Kelly's last day alive to testify at the inquest. How many people apparently spoke to her or saw her on the Thursday? A small handful out of the thousands that you point out the police spoke to.

How many people even said they knew her in the press? A very small number.

I don't really see that Kelly was more than a normal woman (or prostitute) in Whitechapel who knew the normal amount of people living in the surrounding area one would expect her to know. I find it difficult to believe that she was anything approaching an especially "well known" local person.

[David Orsam]

There are several press reports, as Jon Wickerman has pointed out, which relate to Mary Kelly being a bit of a character, and rather well known in that area. McCarthy said this of her at the inquest

"I frequently saw the deceased the worse for drink. When sober she was an exceptionally quiet woman, but when in drink she had more to say. She was able to walk about, and was not helpless."

So it seems as if she was quite argumentative in drink.

Regarding whether Maxwell's evidence should be taken seriously, all I'll say is this. I'd be surprised if the police did not check whether Kelly had or had not visited The Britannia PH at the time stipulated by Maxwell. Regarding the man she claimed she saw talking with Kelly, as far as I know he didn't appear in any of the descriptions of individuals whom the police were interested in tracing.

Furthermore, the coroner seemed to be wary of her evidence, he stating

"You must be very careful about your evidence, because it is different to other people's.

There was also this exchange between Macdonald, and Maxwell.

[Coroner] Did you speak to her ? - Yes; it was an unusual thing to see her up. She was a young woman who never associated with any one. I spoke across the street, "What, Mary, brings you up so early ?" She said, "Oh, Carrie, I do feel so bad."
[Coroner] And yet you say you had only spoken to her twice previously; you knew her name and she knew yours ? - Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house.

Again, regarding her evidence, the coroner seemed somewhat incredulous.

I believe Maxwell was one of those witnesses who were seeking their five minutes of fame, much like Hutchinson, Packer, and Violenia.

The rest of your post Observer is like Groundhog Day for me. I wonder if you have actually been reading my posts on this subject.

The Coroner's wariness must have been based on his knowledge of the doctor's estimate of time of death, perhaps with the scream in mind, but I've said a number of times that his remarks to Mrs Maxwell were unfair bearing in mind that there was no evidence presented at the inquest which contradicted her account of Kelly being alive at 8:00am. None at all.

The word "incredulous" is yours alone and is not supported by anything the coroner said. Of course he asked questions and tested her account but it's impossible to know for sure what impression Mrs Maxwell left on the inquest. I'm not aware of any contemporary comments about that. Dew says something about it but that was much later.

As for the Britannia, the police would only have been able to find out anything if the people in the Britannia actually knew her and that's why I've been pressing Jon about the evidence relating to her being a local celebrity or "well known". We have no idea if she had ever been into the Britannia before; perhaps she drunk in other pubs. So the people in the Britannia might never have seen her before or taken any notice of her if she had been in there. There were no photographs the police could show people to identify her. Maxwell didn't even say she was in there in any case, she said she saw her outside the Britannia. It was Lewis who said she was in there.

And you can believe what you like about Maxwell, it doesn't change the fact that there was no evidence presented at the inquest which contradicted her account, nor anything we know now that contradicts her account, and THAT is the only point I have been making in this forum.

[David Orsam]

Looking at your track record of late, in my opinion, the above comment is not out of place, although, the vast majority who contribute to this forum have been guilty of similar behaviour at one time or another.

It's a real shame that you persist in your unfair and unwarranted allegation rather than withdraw it, referring vaguely to my "track record". It calls into question your own behaviour in my opinion.

Of course, there is so much inconsistent evidence in this case that it's impossible not to be selective if you want to express any opinion at all but your accusation is obviously that I am somehow improperly and irrationally selecting facts to support a certain position and ignoring others which don't.

I deny this absolutely and don't believe you will find any evidence of this in my posts. As it happens, I've expressed relatively few opinions on this forum regarding the murders and those that I have expressed only after carefully considering the evidence.

I suggest you are being selective in your reading of my posts and seeing what you want to see.

[harry]

There is little conclusive evidence about anything.One is reduced to belief,and as long as that belief is belief beyond a reasonable doubt,I find nothimg wrong in believing Hutchinson was the person seen by Lewis, that Maxwell made a mistake,and the murder of Kelly were committed in the hours of darkness.
Oh! and no one was seen entering the court ahead of Lewis.

[Wickerman]

The full quote of Inspector Dew in his memoirs was:

"Meanwhile, in Miller's Court itself, there was something approaching panic. Marie had been well-known to every resident and, sunny of nature, had been very popular."

So he was there talking about the residents of the few houses in Millers Court.

And even then, do you really think he had spoken to "every resident" to establish this?

Well actually David, the police did.

During the whole of yesterday Sergeant Thicke, with other officers, was busily engaged in writing down the names, statements, and full particulars of persons staying at the various lodging-houses in Dorset-street. That this was no easy task will be imagined when it is known that in one house alone there are upwards of 260 persons, and that several houses accommodate over 200.
Times, 12 Nov.

I don't expect Drew is implying he undertook this task himself, he is likely relaying pertinent details that arose from the house-to-house enquiries undertaken throughout Dorset St. and adjoining streets and courts, over that weekend.


The deceased was well known to those living round about,...

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_news/18881110.html

I find it a little hard to take seriously the comments of the local dossers (did MJK actually require "doss money"?) and I'm not aware of the press interviews which said Kelly was "well known in the area". Are you able to dig them out?

The rent she paid was due either daily or weekly, sources differ.
I'm not sure it is fair to expect a dosser to make the distinction between his "doss-money" and Kelly's rent for her room. Its all the same thing to them who don't care.

[Observer]

I have to say I think that comment is unfair and uncalled for.

I'm sure Mary Jane Kelly knew some people in the Whitechapel area like practically everyone did and some people knew her. I'm trying to establish if she was actually a particularly "well known" or "popular" person.

Looking at your track record of late, in my opinion, the above comment is not out of place, although, the vast majority who contribute to this forum have been guilty of similar behaviour at one time or another.

There are several press reports, as Jon Wickerman has pointed out, which relate to Mary Kelly being a bit of a character, and rather well known in that area. McCarthy said this of her at the inquest

"I frequently saw the deceased the worse for drink. When sober she was an exceptionally quiet woman, but when in drink she had more to say. She was able to walk about, and was not helpless."

So it seems as if she was quite argumentative in drink.

Regarding whether Maxwell's evidence should be taken seriously, all I'll say is this. I'd be surprised if the police did not check whether Kelly had or had not visited The Britannia PH at the time stipulated by Maxwell. Regarding the man she claimed she saw talking with Kelly, as far as I know he didn't appear in any of the descriptions of individuals whom the police were interested in tracing.

Furthermore, the coroner seemed to be wary of her evidence, he stating

"You must be very careful about your evidence, because it is different to other people's.

There was also this exchange between Macdonald, and Maxwell.

[Coroner] Did you speak to her ? - Yes; it was an unusual thing to see her up. She was a young woman who never associated with any one. I spoke across the street, "What, Mary, brings you up so early ?" She said, "Oh, Carrie, I do feel so bad."
[Coroner] And yet you say you had only spoken to her twice previously; you knew her name and she knew yours ? - Oh, yes; by being about in the lodging-house.

Again, regarding her evidence, the coroner seemed somewhat incredulous.

I believe Maxwell was one of those witnesses who were seeking their five minutes of fame, much like Hutchinson, Packer, and Violenia.

[David Orsam]

Not that you'll take any notice of this for you are somewhat selective in what you want to believe and not to believe, but here it is anyway

I have to say I think that comment is unfair and uncalled for.

I'm sure Mary Jane Kelly knew some people in the Whitechapel area like practically everyone did and some people knew her. I'm trying to establish if she was actually a particularly "well known" or "popular" person.