Prater's stairs

[Wickerman]

Thanks Pierre,
With the door (Prater's) in that position it all seem to slot into place.
I was wondering if there were TWO door (partitions) in #13. One where we can see it in MJK photos and another other which would lead into the 'salon' (the backwall of the shed?

The Goads map of 29 Hanbury St. also provides no internal walls, yet from this poor quality photo we can see a wall down the right side of the passage.



I'm sure the 'shed' at 26 Dorset St. was partitioned off from the rest of the house, an access door could also have been nailed shut too.

[MysterySinger]

David

Whilst agreeing about the width of the door. Let's try and not confuse Richard.

I am prepared to accept that the whole wall is a partition but made up of what ever was avaliable be that a mix of bricks and wood maybe plaster and a door.
However the map indicates it is brick. Could well be mainly brick with wood facing in 13.

Steve

I believe it has to be brick as it is a load bearing wall - so I'm in agreement with the map on that and there would have been a single door from 26 into what became 13. I think that's the same door you can see in MJK1 (but yes it could well have been sealed up). I also think you're right about the wood facing in 13 covering initially both the the lower half of the wall and the door to make a flush wall/partition along the whole length (but part of this, at some point, has been removed from the door as evidenced by MJK1). The top half of the wall seems to have been plaster with wainscotting at the lower half.

[richardh]

Only that the stairs needs to be partitioned off from the shed and that seemed a logical way to do it. I would assume that the shed originally had that wall running the entire width so that there was a front room and a back room.

Would the front door of the shed have led directly onto a hall with a door on the right to enter the front room?

Excellent Richard, now, I have a question for you.

You have included an extra wall which runs from the back wall of the 'shed' perpendicular towards the 'partition wall' of Kelly's room.
You have also put a door in that perpendicular wall.
The end result appears to be the 'shed' is now an 'L' shaped room with two doors?

Do you have a reason for that?

[Elamarna]

[QUOTE=Pierre;364386]

Come on Pierre.
The sketch showing the crowd outside 26. Which you claim proves the police boarded it up. THAT SKETCH.
It Shows a door. In the front of the building. But no door is shown on the maps.

No doors are shown on 29, 28 and 27 at all so were there none? How did people get into those properties.

Have you not seen the photo of 26 and 27 with the doors?

And look at my drawing in the previous posts where I describe the access to the corridor above the passage.

Do you you mean the one from the 1928?
Of course I have, you really do not understand do you, when i said "so were there none? How did people get into those properties." i wasn’t saying there were none i was attempting to draw your attention to the fact DOORS don't seem to be shown

Thank you for making my point for me, the doors are not shown on the goad map.
You say there are no openings in the passage way on the map and therefore no doors are possible.


The same applies to the front doors. they are not on the map so they can't exist can they?
The court yard door to 13 is the same. its not on the plan.


Your logic for this does not work!

your drawing does not show how you walk through a solid wall. it just shows a staircase going up to the first floor, there are NO openings on the map into the archway or 27

[Elamarna]

I believe it has to be brick as it is a load bearing wall - so I'm in agreement with the map on that and there would have been a single door from 26 into what became 13. I think that's the same door you can see in MJK1 (but yes it could well have been sealed up). I also think you're right about the wood facing in 13 covering initially both the the lower half of the wall and the door to make a flush wall/partition along the whole length (but part of this, at some point, has been removed from the door as evidenced by MJK1). The top half of the wall seems to have been plaster with wainscotting at the lower half.

Yes that all make perfect sense, it would explain why it was referred to as a "wooden partition".
Phillips and others, saw wood and plaster and never saw the bricks.

Steve

[Wickerman]

It's actually very enjoyable to create these things and see them come to virtual life. I have been 'walking around' this model today and with the right lighting and 'mood' it is a very eerie experience.

Once we have decided on a final model I will create a final render 'fly-thru'.

I have been meaning to ask you Richard, there are some details provided in the Kate Marshall case which give clues to the layout of the stairs on the first floor landing.
Have you studied those notes on that case?

Remarks like, "she was sat with her back to the partition and feet towards the stairs", and another comment about the stairs that go "upstairs" (meaning to the 2nd floor).
It reads to me like the stairs might be located at one end of the 9 x 15 space. Almost like a spiral staircase, except in wood and square not round.

I wondered if you had tried to figure something out on that point.

[MysterySinger]

Well there was a fireplace in Mary's room, that the clothes were burnt in.

It would have been in the brick wall, probably backing onto a fireplace in 26 sharing a chimney.

The fireplace wasn't part of the main building (26) according to the position of the chimney in this photo - it was at the far end of number 13 (and probably the same in the room above) and opposite and parallel with the wall which contained the entry door.

[richardh]

I've not seen those notes. I'd have to be guided as I'm not that widely read and what you described is hard for me to visualise.

Do you not think the stairs configuration on the 1st floor (between 19 & 20) are correct?

I have been meaning to ask you Richard, there are some details provided in the Kate Marshall case which give clues to the layout of the stairs on the first floor landing.
Have you studied those notes on that case?

Remarks like, "she was sat with her back to the partition and feet towards the stairs", and another comment about the stairs that go "upstairs" (meaning to the 2nd floor).
It reads to me like the stairs might be located at one end of the 9 x 15 space. Almost like a spiral staircase, except in wood and square not round.

I wondered if you had tried to figure something out on that point.

[richardh]

This is a view in the shed
The dotted lines indicate where original walls may have been removed to make the area one big space.

#13 partition can be seen at the back (red arrow)

thoughts?

[Wickerman]

I agree with this line of thinking. I am working towards the belief that 26 and 27 were once a single unit. No. 26 was the salon and parlour, 27 was the kitchen.

The Goads Plan of 27 & 26 shows Millers Court passage dividing the two premises, however, the left side of this passage wall is a dashed-line, the right side is solid (except for that door/opening).
This indicates the passage actually ran under No.27, the solid line being the property-line between the two houses.

[richardh]

This is the 1st floor landing for opinions please?

[Wickerman]

Robert
You surprise me.
There is no access from 26 to 27 marked on map. There are brick walls. No openings.
The map shows no entrance at the front for 26 . But there is a door there. The sketch Pierre likes to use looking at 26 shows a door. It's not on the map.
Neither are there doors for 27 28 and 29.

We can occluded the map rarely shows doors .

Steve

Correct, all external doors & windows are assumed.
There are inconsistencies throughout these plans, for example, some windows are shown, and there are two different symbols to indicate windows.
Also, when one window is shown, it does not literally mean only 'one' window.

[Wickerman]

Here's my thinking GUT.

I assume Mary's bed was a double bed because Joe Barnett stayed there.

David.
The bed came with the room, along with the two tables and chair, etc., regardless how many tenants occupied it.

My wife saw the 'body-on-the-bed' photo and she felt sure it was a 3/4 bed, which is a small double.
See this link, the column headed, "Ireland & UK".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bed_size

If that's any help...

[richardh]

#13 partiton:

[Wickerman]

... I would assume that the shed originally had that wall running the entire width so that there was a front room and a back room.

Yes.

Would the front door of the shed have led directly onto a hall with a door on the right to enter the front room?

I think that the front door of No.26 did open into an internal passage that ran towards the staircase (originally).
The trouble is, any side or back wall to that 'shed', may have been removed to make the front room (shed) wide enough to store barrows.
So, by 1888 that front door may have been nailed shut.

For instance , Mrs Prater said she stood at the entrance of Millers Court passage waiting for her man, but she apparently didn't use the front door of No.26 to go up to her room.
Perhaps, that door no longer functioned as a door?

By 1888, that 'shed' may have been partitioned off from the rest of the ground floor by one full width partition.