Oh, murder!

[Abby Normal]

I don't doubt they do Abby, but it seems a long way for the smell of blood to travel, and as you say would require Prater to be confused about timings. Besides, in my experience, kittens - being generally nocturnal and full of mischief - really don't need such an excuse to jump on your face at 4 in the morning!

this is true. LOL!

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks Joshua
Ive always thought that the cat waking her was because it either was disturbed by the killer entering her room, or perhaps, she had the timing off a bit and the cat was agitated by the smell of blood.

Ive had cats and they get agitated (hungry?)when they smell blood.

I don't doubt they do Abby, but it seems a long way for the smell of blood to travel, and as you say would require Prater to be confused about timings. Besides, in my experience, kittens - being generally nocturnal and full of mischief - really don't need such an excuse to jump on your face at 4 in the morning!

[Abby Normal]

Daily News 13th Nov 1888;

"Perhaps the most sensational bit of evidence tendered was that of a garrulous young woman who, with some dramatic force, imitated by voice and action a sort of nightmare cry of "Oh! murder!" which she declared she had heard just after she had been woke up by her kitten rubbing its nose against her face about half-past three or four o'clock on the morning of the murder. It was a faintish cry, she said, as though somebody had woke up with the nightmare, and though the evidence must be taken with the reserve that should attach to all such testimony, the time at which she believes she heard the cry would tally very well with all the circumstances of the case, and it is not impossible that that really was the death gasp of the poor woman in the clutches of her murderer."


Elizabeth Prater's evidence, Echo 12th Nov 1888;

"What was the next thing? - A black kitten, of which I am very fond, came to my bed, and rubbed itself against my face.

It disturbed you? - Yes, it tried to get into the bed, and awoke me. That must have been about half-past four, as I heard the clock chiming. I pushed the kitten away.

Yes? - And, just as I pushed the kitten away I heard, "Oh! Murder!" It was as if it was a nightmare. It was just "Oh! Oh! (in a faint, gasping way) - Murder!"

Where did the sound seem to come from? - Up the court, somewhere. I did not hear it a second time. I did not take any notice of it. Then I went to sleep.

You did not hear any singing? - None whatever. If there had been any at half-past one I should have heard it."

Thanks Joshua
Ive always thought that the cat waking her was because it either was disturbed by the killer entering her room, or perhaps, she had the timing off a bit and the cat was agitated by the smell of blood.

Ive had cats and they get agitated (hungry?)when they smell blood.

[Joshua Rogan]

Daily News 13th Nov 1888;

"Perhaps the most sensational bit of evidence tendered was that of a garrulous young woman who, with some dramatic force, imitated by voice and action a sort of nightmare cry of "Oh! murder!" which she declared she had heard just after she had been woke up by her kitten rubbing its nose against her face about half-past three or four o'clock on the morning of the murder. It was a faintish cry, she said, as though somebody had woke up with the nightmare, and though the evidence must be taken with the reserve that should attach to all such testimony, the time at which she believes she heard the cry would tally very well with all the circumstances of the case, and it is not impossible that that really was the death gasp of the poor woman in the clutches of her murderer."


Elizabeth Prater's evidence, Echo 12th Nov 1888;

"What was the next thing? - A black kitten, of which I am very fond, came to my bed, and rubbed itself against my face.

It disturbed you? - Yes, it tried to get into the bed, and awoke me. That must have been about half-past four, as I heard the clock chiming. I pushed the kitten away.

Yes? - And, just as I pushed the kitten away I heard, "Oh! Murder!" It was as if it was a nightmare. It was just "Oh! Oh! (in a faint, gasping way) - Murder!"

Where did the sound seem to come from? - Up the court, somewhere. I did not hear it a second time. I did not take any notice of it. Then I went to sleep.

You did not hear any singing? - None whatever. If there had been any at half-past one I should have heard it."

[Sam Flynn]

Has Bowyer ever been identified in any records? Do they know his correct age for sure even?

Not sure about his precise age, but he was evidently not a "youth" by any stretch of the imagination. All the newspaper illustrations of Bowyer seem to depict a man well into his thirties or even forties, unreliable as such drawings sometimes are. That said, there's a sketch of him in the Penny Illustrated Newspaper, so well-observed that it may well have been drawn from life. To me, it shows a man in his mid/late forties at least:



(Penny Illustrated Newspaper, 17th Nov 1888)

[RockySullivan]

I've often wondered If Dew picked that up from a newspaper report (perhaps from his scrapbook) when compiling his memories, but either way it shows he didn't know Tom too well.

Has Bowyer ever been identified in any records? Do they know his correct age for sure even?
Edit: Sorry I took a look over at the bowyer thread

[GUT]

Dew also said that army pensioner Tom Bowyer was a "youth" (among other howlers), so I'd treat his recollections with caution. Personally, I feel that Dew "puffed up" his involvement in the Ripper case.

I've often wondered If Dew picked that up from a newspaper report (perhaps from his scrapbook) when compiling his memories, but either way it shows he didn't know Tom too well.

[Pcdunn]

Whose noses?

BTW do they ever find any of these women's noses?

I'm not quite sure what you mean, Robert St Devil?
Nothing was wrong with Polly's, Annie's, or Liz's noses, to the best of my knowledge.
Kate's nose was partially sliced off, and Mary Jane's face was pretty much flayed, including her nose.

Do you think the noses were important?

[RockySullivan]

Hi C4,
We have three reports,of a bonnet on the 8th/9th Nov,.Mrs Harvey allegedly said to Kelly.''I am leaving my bonnet for you''on the Thursday.
Mrs Prater reported seeing Kelly at 9pm 8th,at the passage, wearing a jacket and bonnet..
A bonnet was burnt in the grate..which was the only bonnet found therefore Mrs Harvey's.
Although Dew may have mentioned he never saw Kelly wearing a bonnet, it does not mean she did not on her last night...she may have had a date, Thursday evening. she may have wanted to wear it to the Lord mayors show the following day.
Regards Richard.

No problem Rich

[Sam Flynn]

Why did the man loitering in front of Miller's court not enter her room before 2.30?

He wasn't exactly loitering outside Miller's Court, but opposite the entrance to the Court, outside the lodging-house on the other side of the road. He could have been a lodger who'd gone outside for a pipe of tobacco, or even one of the lodging-house staff, e.g. Caroline Maxwell's husband. If so, perhaps Mrs Maxwell's strange story about meeting Kelly after her probable death was an attempted smokescreen

I don't seriously believe that, but I've seen wackier theories in my time!

[Sam Flynn]

Sorry, but according to Dew, who knew her quite well, Mary never wore a hat.

Dew also said that army pensioner Tom Bowyer was a "youth" (among other howlers), so I'd treat his recollections with caution. Personally, I feel that Dew "puffed up" his involvement in the Ripper case.

[richardnunweek]

Hi C4,
We have three reports,of a bonnet on the 8th/9th Nov,.Mrs Harvey allegedly said to Kelly.''I am leaving my bonnet for you''on the Thursday.
Mrs Prater reported seeing Kelly at 9pm 8th,at the passage, wearing a jacket and bonnet..
A bonnet was burnt in the grate..which was the only bonnet found therefore Mrs Harvey's.
Although Dew may have mentioned he never saw Kelly wearing a bonnet, it does not mean she did not on her last night...she may have had a date, Thursday evening. she may have wanted to wear it to the Lord mayors show the following day.
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Rocky Sullivan.
Senior moment..I obviously meant to say Maurice Lewis..not Bowyer..hope it did not confuse you too much..Sorry.
Regards Richard.

[Robert St Devil]

Hello ROSELLA.
Would the kettle have whistled?

BTW do they ever find any of these women's noses?

[Rosella]

Pierre, it was a small fireplace and probably a big fire, but I'm not worried about the size of it in particular, just how it was made to flare up and burn, whatever its size. Mary probably had no kindling and no coal, so...?

And don't say clothing in the room (the remains of which were found) and a match, because, although clothing was undoubtedly thrown on a fire which was already burning, it would have needed wood to have got it alight and flaring in the first place. Plus, items of clothing placed on top of a fire smothers it.