Oh, murder!

[curious4]

Hi Abby.
If one takes all the knowledge we have, we have a T.O.D. anytime between 2.30 am Friday 9th, till 9 am the 9th.
That takes into account the statements of Hutchinson and Maxwell, and we have no information that either was lying.
We have Mrs Pickett, knocking at Kelly's door, and receiving no reply close to 8 am, we have Bowyer stating he saw Kelly leave her room around 8 am , and return shortly after, which ties in with Maxwell.
Again we have no information either was not telling the truth, infact, by Bowyer admitting he was playing an illegal game [ pitch] and Maxwell's account being verified, we have conformation of truth.
As for the fire, it is likely either the killer lit it to destroy evidence, or Kelly lit it before 8.am. the blazing fire in the night, to give the killer light, never washed with me.
You are correct, that she wanted to go to the Lord Mayors show, Mrs Picketts knock, and the fact she needed to get up early, resulted in Mrs Maxwell saying''What brings you up this early?''.
We have the same witness saying she was talking to a man, around 8.45 am, we know that Mary returned to her room. so it is possible that this man called on her whilst Kelly was getting dressed into her best clothes , and the jacket and bonnet were on her bed, ready to wear..
Police stated that the Killer acted in daylight[ Times Nov 12th] and burnt a velvet jacket, and bonnet, because they were bloodstained.
Why?
If the items were on the bed, when she was murdered, they would have become bloodstained, and that would tell the police , that the murder happened in daylight, something the killer may have wanted to avoid. as it would be unlikely that the victim would , go to sleep at night with jacket and bonnet in close proximity.
I am sorry you believe this is all ''Silly stuff''..I am merely using information available, and interpreting it, which is all any of us can do.
Regards Richard.

Hello Richard

Sorry, but according to Dew, who knew her quite well, Mary never wore a hat.

Best wishes
C4

[RockySullivan]

Hi Abby.
If one takes all the knowledge we have, we have a T.O.D. anytime between 2.30 am Friday 9th, till 9 am the 9th.
That takes into account the statements of Hutchinson and Maxwell, and we have no information that either was lying.
We have Mrs Pickett, knocking at Kelly's door, and receiving no reply close to 8 am, we have Bowyer stating he saw Kelly leave her room around 8 am , and return shortly after, which ties in with Maxwell.
Again we have no information either was not telling the truth, infact, by Bowyer admitting he was playing an illegal game [ pitch] and Maxwell's account being verified, we have conformation of truth.
As for the fire, it is likely either the killer lit it to destroy evidence, or Kelly lit it before 8.am. the blazing fire in the night, to give the killer light, never washed with me.
You are correct, that she wanted to go to the Lord Mayors show, Mrs Picketts knock, and the fact she needed to get up early, resulted in Mrs Maxwell saying''What brings you up this early?''.
We have the same witness saying she was talking to a man, around 8.45 am, we know that Mary returned to her room. so it is possible that this man called on her whilst Kelly was getting dressed into her best clothes , and the jacket and bonnet were on her bed, ready to wear..
Police stated that the Killer acted in daylight[ Times Nov 12th] and burnt a velvet jacket, and bonnet, because they were bloodstained.
Why?
If the items were on the bed, when she was murdered, they would have become bloodstained, and that would tell the police , that the murder happened in daylight, something the killer may have wanted to avoid. as it would be unlikely that the victim would , go to sleep at night with jacket and bonnet in close proximity.
I am sorry you believe this is all ''Silly stuff''..I am merely using information available, and interpreting it, which is all any of us can do.
Regards Richard.

Bowyer saw Kelly Leave her room that morning? I've never seen that quote can you post it for me? If he claimed that it would mean he claimed to be in the court around when Kelly screamed Murder, saw come out at 8 am and then found her body hours later. What was he doing watching her all late night and morning?

[Rosella]

Pierre, it was a small fireplace and probably a big fire, but I'm not worried about the size of it in particular, just how it was made to flare up and burn, whatever its size. Mary probably had no kindling and no coal, so...?

And don't say clothing in the room (the remains of which were found) and a match, because, although clothing was undoubtedly thrown on a fire which was already burning, it would have needed wood to have got it alight and flaring in the first place. Plus, items of clothing placed on top of a fire smothers it.

[Robert St Devil]

Hello ROSELLA.
Would the kettle have whistled?

BTW do they ever find any of these women's noses?

[richardnunweek]

Hi Rocky Sullivan.
Senior moment..I obviously meant to say Maurice Lewis..not Bowyer..hope it did not confuse you too much..Sorry.
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hi C4,
We have three reports,of a bonnet on the 8th/9th Nov,.Mrs Harvey allegedly said to Kelly.''I am leaving my bonnet for you''on the Thursday.
Mrs Prater reported seeing Kelly at 9pm 8th,at the passage, wearing a jacket and bonnet..
A bonnet was burnt in the grate..which was the only bonnet found therefore Mrs Harvey's.
Although Dew may have mentioned he never saw Kelly wearing a bonnet, it does not mean she did not on her last night...she may have had a date, Thursday evening. she may have wanted to wear it to the Lord mayors show the following day.
Regards Richard.

[Sam Flynn]

Sorry, but according to Dew, who knew her quite well, Mary never wore a hat.

Dew also said that army pensioner Tom Bowyer was a "youth" (among other howlers), so I'd treat his recollections with caution. Personally, I feel that Dew "puffed up" his involvement in the Ripper case.

[Sam Flynn]

Why did the man loitering in front of Miller's court not enter her room before 2.30?

He wasn't exactly loitering outside Miller's Court, but opposite the entrance to the Court, outside the lodging-house on the other side of the road. He could have been a lodger who'd gone outside for a pipe of tobacco, or even one of the lodging-house staff, e.g. Caroline Maxwell's husband. If so, perhaps Mrs Maxwell's strange story about meeting Kelly after her probable death was an attempted smokescreen

I don't seriously believe that, but I've seen wackier theories in my time!

[RockySullivan]

Hi C4,
We have three reports,of a bonnet on the 8th/9th Nov,.Mrs Harvey allegedly said to Kelly.''I am leaving my bonnet for you''on the Thursday.
Mrs Prater reported seeing Kelly at 9pm 8th,at the passage, wearing a jacket and bonnet..
A bonnet was burnt in the grate..which was the only bonnet found therefore Mrs Harvey's.
Although Dew may have mentioned he never saw Kelly wearing a bonnet, it does not mean she did not on her last night...she may have had a date, Thursday evening. she may have wanted to wear it to the Lord mayors show the following day.
Regards Richard.

No problem Rich

[Pcdunn]

Whose noses?

BTW do they ever find any of these women's noses?

I'm not quite sure what you mean, Robert St Devil?
Nothing was wrong with Polly's, Annie's, or Liz's noses, to the best of my knowledge.
Kate's nose was partially sliced off, and Mary Jane's face was pretty much flayed, including her nose.

Do you think the noses were important?

[GUT]

Dew also said that army pensioner Tom Bowyer was a "youth" (among other howlers), so I'd treat his recollections with caution. Personally, I feel that Dew "puffed up" his involvement in the Ripper case.

I've often wondered If Dew picked that up from a newspaper report (perhaps from his scrapbook) when compiling his memories, but either way it shows he didn't know Tom too well.

[RockySullivan]

I've often wondered If Dew picked that up from a newspaper report (perhaps from his scrapbook) when compiling his memories, but either way it shows he didn't know Tom too well.

Has Bowyer ever been identified in any records? Do they know his correct age for sure even?
Edit: Sorry I took a look over at the bowyer thread

[Sam Flynn]

Has Bowyer ever been identified in any records? Do they know his correct age for sure even?

Not sure about his precise age, but he was evidently not a "youth" by any stretch of the imagination. All the newspaper illustrations of Bowyer seem to depict a man well into his thirties or even forties, unreliable as such drawings sometimes are. That said, there's a sketch of him in the Penny Illustrated Newspaper, so well-observed that it may well have been drawn from life. To me, it shows a man in his mid/late forties at least:



(Penny Illustrated Newspaper, 17th Nov 1888)

[Joshua Rogan]

Daily News 13th Nov 1888;

"Perhaps the most sensational bit of evidence tendered was that of a garrulous young woman who, with some dramatic force, imitated by voice and action a sort of nightmare cry of "Oh! murder!" which she declared she had heard just after she had been woke up by her kitten rubbing its nose against her face about half-past three or four o'clock on the morning of the murder. It was a faintish cry, she said, as though somebody had woke up with the nightmare, and though the evidence must be taken with the reserve that should attach to all such testimony, the time at which she believes she heard the cry would tally very well with all the circumstances of the case, and it is not impossible that that really was the death gasp of the poor woman in the clutches of her murderer."


Elizabeth Prater's evidence, Echo 12th Nov 1888;

"What was the next thing? - A black kitten, of which I am very fond, came to my bed, and rubbed itself against my face.

It disturbed you? - Yes, it tried to get into the bed, and awoke me. That must have been about half-past four, as I heard the clock chiming. I pushed the kitten away.

Yes? - And, just as I pushed the kitten away I heard, "Oh! Murder!" It was as if it was a nightmare. It was just "Oh! Oh! (in a faint, gasping way) - Murder!"

Where did the sound seem to come from? - Up the court, somewhere. I did not hear it a second time. I did not take any notice of it. Then I went to sleep.

You did not hear any singing? - None whatever. If there had been any at half-past one I should have heard it."

[Abby Normal]

Daily News 13th Nov 1888;

"Perhaps the most sensational bit of evidence tendered was that of a garrulous young woman who, with some dramatic force, imitated by voice and action a sort of nightmare cry of "Oh! murder!" which she declared she had heard just after she had been woke up by her kitten rubbing its nose against her face about half-past three or four o'clock on the morning of the murder. It was a faintish cry, she said, as though somebody had woke up with the nightmare, and though the evidence must be taken with the reserve that should attach to all such testimony, the time at which she believes she heard the cry would tally very well with all the circumstances of the case, and it is not impossible that that really was the death gasp of the poor woman in the clutches of her murderer."


Elizabeth Prater's evidence, Echo 12th Nov 1888;

"What was the next thing? - A black kitten, of which I am very fond, came to my bed, and rubbed itself against my face.

It disturbed you? - Yes, it tried to get into the bed, and awoke me. That must have been about half-past four, as I heard the clock chiming. I pushed the kitten away.

Yes? - And, just as I pushed the kitten away I heard, "Oh! Murder!" It was as if it was a nightmare. It was just "Oh! Oh! (in a faint, gasping way) - Murder!"

Where did the sound seem to come from? - Up the court, somewhere. I did not hear it a second time. I did not take any notice of it. Then I went to sleep.

You did not hear any singing? - None whatever. If there had been any at half-past one I should have heard it."

Thanks Joshua
Ive always thought that the cat waking her was because it either was disturbed by the killer entering her room, or perhaps, she had the timing off a bit and the cat was agitated by the smell of blood.

Ive had cats and they get agitated (hungry?)when they smell blood.