Oh, murder!

[Pierre]

QUOTE=Michael W Richards;413142

[Coroner] Did you hear beds or tables being pulled about?

Hi Michael,

What do you think the reason for asking that question was?

Pierre

[Michael W Richards]

Been a little busy the past few days, so I havent had time to address why we should believe Mr Orsams insistence that Liz Prater intended to suggest she heard the cry after 4am;

"The partition was so thin I could have heard Kelly walk about in the room. I went to bed at half-past one and barricaded the door with two tables. I fell asleep directly and slept soundly. A kitten disturbed me about half-past three o'clock or a quarter to four. As I was turning round I heard a suppressed cry of "Oh - murder!" in a faint voice. It seemed to proceed from the court.
[Coroner] Do you often hear cries of "Murder?" - It is nothing unusual in the street. I did not take particular notice.
[Coroner] Did you hear it a second time? - No.
[Coroner] Did you hear beds or tables being pulled about? - None whatever. I went asleep, and was awake again at five a.m. I passed down the stairs, and saw some men harnessing horses. At a quarter to six I was in the Ten Bells.
[Coroner] Could the witness, Mary Ann Cox, have come down the entry between one and half-past one o'clock without your knowledge ? - Yes, she could have done so.
[Coroner] Did you see any strangers at the Ten Bells ? - No. I went back to bed and slept until eleven.
[Coroner] You heard no singing downstairs ? - None whatever. I should have heard the singing distinctly. It was quite quiet at half-past one o'clock. "

I dont see any suggestion she heard it later than approx 3:45, I also note how she addresses her ability to hear things move about in the room, and that after the singing stopped she noted the room was dark.

Im sure some of you learn-ed book writers see some cryptic message from Jack in all that or something equally melodramatic, but all I see is a woman who gives us important data, in quite clear English.. The fact that a second witness heard what she describes as the same type of call out ALSO at 3:45 should cinch the matter, but....

The witness that lived in the same structure as Mary says her room was dark and quiet before 1:30, and she heard a cry out which seemed to "proceed" from the court at approx 3:45. She heard such cries often in the past and paid little attention to them as a serious call for help, yet listened for further noise. That call was all she heard before falling back asleep, ergo, no physical altercation took place in a room below her immediately after the call, and why would there be any need for an immediate one, if Mary willingly let the person in herself. Which again, the evidence strongly indicates.

[David Orsam]

Congratulations on starting to use sources for your opinions, David.

Oh my dear boy how absolutely magnanimous of you to say so but you know, my dear boy, I fear this means we go back to where we were yesterday because, given that the Western Times report was clearly not speculation, we are still due an answer from you to John G's question ("Are you suggesting that newspapers speculated as to what was said at inquests, rather than report the proceedings verbatim? What's your evidence for this?")

[Pierre]

Oh my dear boy, how delightfully you put your response, but I do have sources which prove that the omission of the word "not" in the Western Times was nothing more than a typographical error.

For we can find an otherwise identically worded report (with "she" instead of "he") in both the Dundee Courier and the Cork Constitution of the same date, 13 November 1888. Thus:

"Elizabeth Prater, living in the room over the deceased, stated that some time on Thursday night she heard a single scream of "murder". That was not an uncommon incident. Another woman in the court also heard the scream."

This report also appeared in the Macclesfield Courier and Herald of 17 November as can be found on the press reports section of this site:

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/macclesfield_courier/881117.html?

So it was nothing more than an agency report which was incorrectly reproduced in the Western Times. No speculation or fabrication of any kind. Only a typo.

Congratulations on starting to use sources for your opinions, David.

[David Orsam]

Clearly you are fully and intensely aware of the fact that what you say is just your own personal opinion, since - as you told us on the forum - you do not have any sources for your own assumptions.

Oh my dear boy, how delightfully you put your response, but I do have sources which prove that the omission of the word "not" in the Western Times was nothing more than a typographical error.

For we can find an otherwise identically worded report (with "she" instead of "he") in both the Dundee Courier and the Cork Constitution of the same date, 13 November 1888. Thus:

"Elizabeth Prater, living in the room over the deceased, stated that some time on Thursday night she heard a single scream of "murder". That was not an uncommon incident. Another woman in the court also heard the scream."

This report also appeared in the Macclesfield Courier and Herald of 17 November as can be found on the press reports section of this site:

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/macclesfield_courier/881117.html?

So it was nothing more than an agency report which was incorrectly reproduced in the Western Times. No speculation or fabrication of any kind. Only a typo.

[Pierre]

I'm not sure I follow you my dear boy. Are you saying I don't like Prater being a woman?

Oh, you are probably referring to the "not uncommon" thing. Well my dear boy, all the other newspaper reports record that Prater said the cry was not uncommon, or words to that effect. Her deposition records a statement "I frequently hear such cries from the back of the lodging-house" so the obvious conclusion is that the Western Times report should have said "not uncommon". It might have been a typo, it might have been the reporter mishearing, or it might be that the reporter phoned the report in to his paper and the person writing it down misheard, you know my dear boy, all those sorts of reasons I gave you earlier. The one thing I would say it is certainly not, my dear boy, is any form of speculation.

Clearly you are fully and intensely aware of the fact that what you say is just your own personal opinion, since - as you told us on the forum - you do not have any sources for your own assumptions.

[David Orsam]

Everything that you do not like is a typographical error.

I'm not sure I follow you my dear boy. Are you saying I don't like Prater being a woman?

Oh, you are probably referring to the "not uncommon" thing. Well my dear boy, all the other newspaper reports record that Prater said the cry was not uncommon, or words to that effect. Her deposition records a statement "I frequently hear such cries from the back of the lodging-house" so the obvious conclusion is that the Western Times report should have said "not uncommon". It might have been a typo, it might have been the reporter mishearing, or it might be that the reporter phoned the report in to his paper and the person writing it down misheard, you know my dear boy, all those sorts of reasons I gave you earlier. The one thing I would say it is certainly not, my dear boy, is any form of speculation.

[Pierre]

My dear boy, I think you will find that is a typographical error in the sense that the word "not" has been accidentally omitted. It's very much like the use of the word "he" in the report where the letter "s" would appear to have omitted. I don't think the reporter was speculating that Prater was a man. Or perhaps he was, what do you think my dear fellow?

Everything that you do not like is a typographical error.

[John G]

Actually, what exactly is the "Western Times?" I've never heard of the publication

[David Orsam]

That can be interpreted as a guess, i.e. speculation.

My dear boy, I think you will find that is a typographical error in the sense that the word "not" has been accidentally omitted. It's very much like the use of the word "he" in the report where the letter "s" would appear to have omitted. I don't think the reporter was speculating that Prater was a man. Or perhaps he was, what do you think my dear fellow?

[DJA]

Is that one of those smart phone thingies?

[Pierre]

My dear boy, could you enlighten us as to how that extract from the Western Times is an example of speculation?

According to yourself

"What I posted was corroborating evidence that the cry of murder was a frequent one in the neighbourhood of Whitechapel, as Prater said, thus reducing the probability that the one heard in the early hours of 9 November by residents around Millers Court had anything to do with Kelly's murder."

and others who believe that cries of murder was "frequent", that believe is established on statements from Prater in various sources that she frequently heard such cries of murder.

This newspaper reporting from the inquest is contradictory and says it was uncommon.

That can be interpreted as a guess, i.e. speculation.

[John G]

Elizabeth Prater being a "he" does it for me

I think that's what's called a typo: a modern equivalent would be a predictive text error, a phenomenon that keeps impacting on my posts!

[DJA]

My dear boy, could you enlighten us as to how that extract from the Western Times is an example of speculation?

Elizabeth Prater being a "he" does it for me

[John G]

"Speculation": definition (Cambridge):

the activity of guessing possible answers to a question without having enough information to be certain

"Speculation": relevant example (Western Times - Friday 16 November 1888):

I have no idea of what this post means, especially as regards relevancy. Thanks for the Western Times reference, although it seems a bit of a random citation!