Mary Jane Kelly found?

[Rosella]

Hi packers stem,
We don't know that the ripper found out by random chance that his two victims had the same last name at all. That's something you've conjectured.

Many women were fearful of the Ripper. People in general in the east end were terrified, especially after the double event. There is no evidence that Mary knew who the serial killer was. Kelly wasn't a particularly unusual name, either. Plus people often gave aliases and false names on being taken into custody at that time.

No, I don't disbelieve all eyewitness evidence at all. The police (even those who took into account that Mrs Maxwell was a highly respectable woman) , believed that she was mistaken. So do I.

[Sally]

The pawn ticket is NOT the important thing,the fact that she gave the name Mary Jane Kelly when she was released from custody is

Mary Ann Kelly, I think.

[GUT]

I'm not doubting that Joe Barnett had been intimate with Kelly...so had others apparently.Not sure what this has to do with anything though? Think it was 18 months they'd been living together, easter 87,but then a week before she was killed they split....when she was at her most fearful of the ripper..... Odd

But you want to ignore his I'd of her.

[packers stem]

I'm not doubting that Joe Barnett had been intimate with Kelly...so had others apparently.Not sure what this has to do with anything though? Think it was 18 months they'd been living together, easter 87,but then a week before she was killed they split....when she was at her most fearful of the ripper..... Odd

[GUT]

But it's fine to ignore Joes evidence that it was the woman he had been intimate with for the last 2 years?

[packers stem]

I fear you're totally missing the point Rosella
The pawn ticket is NOT the important thing,the fact that she gave the name Mary Jane Kelly when she was released from custody is..
It clearly shows that she was using that name that day for whatever reason, the chance that she was using that name earlier in the day when someone obviously paid for her drinks is inescapable. Who paid for her drinks? This person or people around at the time could believe this woman to be called Mary Kelly and saw her being arrested,knowing that at some point she would be released.There is no evidence anywhere to suggest Eddowes ever resorted to prostitution so how did this penniless woman get drunk??
So no GUT, not a case of someone random killer walking up and saying are you Kelly and rip...
And in terms of why does everything have to be conspiracy... Well no,everything doesn't but likewise everything shouldn't be wrapped up in what we know about random serial killers...find me another killer who has killed at random and who has by chance found that his last two victims were using a particularly uncommon name.... Maybe then you can convince me we are dealing with random here...
And there we go with the ignore maxwell....and Lewis I might add and why? Cos it doesn't fit, it is unfortunate that 'bury you're head and in the sand' is always the answer... Rosella I have to assume that you have ignored all other eye witness testimony then?.. .apart from maxwell,Lewis and bowyer pretty much everything else is in darkness and remembering how poor street lighting was back then carries considerably less significance...

[GUT]

Why does everything always have to be some convoluted conspiracy, (as in the name Kelly being significant) instead of several very unfortunate (not using that word in the Victorian sense) and I'll-fated women meeting a serial killer and being murdered by him?

Yes, Eddowes had a pawn ticket in the name of Jane Kelly with her on the day she died. I'm sure though, that in her conversation with Jack on the way to Mitre Square she didn't go over the story of her life, of her pawning her boyfriend's boots under a false name (as hundreds of others did when they pawned property) and if they exchanged anything more than first names, (or even that) I would be very surprised.

Caroline Maxwell must have seen another person and took her to be Mary. I believe with all my heart that she did have a conversation with a woman who felt ill and vomited that morning. I'm equally certain that Caroline, although sincere, just simply made a mistake and it wasn't Mary.

So true.

I'm sure jack didn't go up to Eddows and say, is your name Kelly "rip".

And for it tonwork Jack had to have no idea who he was actually looking for, other than a name, sort of a Victorian contract killer.

[Rosella]

Why does everything always have to be some convoluted conspiracy, (as in the name Kelly being significant) instead of several very unfortunate (not using that word in the Victorian sense) and I'll-fated women meeting a serial killer and being murdered by him?

Yes, Eddowes had a pawn ticket in the name of Jane Kelly with her on the day she died. I'm sure though, that in her conversation with Jack on the way to Mitre Square she didn't go over the story of her life, of her pawning her boyfriend's boots under a false name (as hundreds of others did when they pawned property) and if they exchanged anything more than first names, (or even that) I would be very surprised.

Caroline Maxwell must have seen another person and took her to be Mary. I believe with all my heart that she did have a conversation with a woman who felt ill and vomited that morning. I'm equally certain that Caroline, although sincere, just simply made a mistake and it wasn't Mary.

[GUT]

Hi GUT
Did say I don't claim to know why or who all I'm sure of is Mary Kelly was the ultimate goal for whatever reason...
48 Mary Kellys in London in 1891 in a city of millions.... And the last 2 of 5 using the name on the day they died...
Chance???? Sorry,no chance. Odds against would be too ridiculous for words If others wish to follow the crowds and believe it's just one of those things cos it fits their theory,then they can do that but for me no...I will never accept that as coincidence

Only if you accept she was the last.

[packers stem]

Hi Robert
She didn't want to 'do away with herself' as in suicide...she wanted to 'make away with herself ' as in vanish

[Robert]

It seems that, far from wanting to do away with herself, Kelly refused to die on any terms whatsoever.

[packers stem]

Hi GUT
Did say I don't claim to know why or who all I'm sure of is Mary Kelly was the ultimate goal for whatever reason...
48 Mary Kellys in London in 1891 in a city of millions.... And the last 2 of 5 using the name on the day they died...
Chance???? Sorry,no chance. Odds against would be too ridiculous for words If others wish to follow the crowds and believe it's just one of those things cos it fits their theory,then they can do that but for me no...I will never accept that as coincidence

[GUT]

Honwas she hunted by?

Why if going to such extremes to fake her death did she stop and have a chat with Mrs Maxwell?

Just doesn't add up.

[packers stem]

Apologies cd, thought this was common knowledge..
The complete jtr hardback page 257
"there was some suggestion that she may have been scared of a man (or men) unknown to her east end associates.It was known to her friends that she was frightened by the ripper murders and contemplated leaving London "
Jtr uncensored facts Paul Begg paperback page 151
Albrook's evidence is valuable for the insights it provides into Kelly's character. 'about the last thing she said was "whatever you do don't do wrong and turn out as I have" she had often spoken to me in this way and warned me against going on the streets as she had done.She told me too that she was heartily sick of the life she was leading and wished she had money enough to go back to Ireland where her people lived.... '
Page 152
A source whose name is not given, but who was described as an associate of the deceased and who told the same story of Kelly intending to 'make away with herself', from which it might be safe to assume it was Margaret.....

[c.d.]

Kelly went to great lengths to inform friends she was ready to 'make away with herself' over the preceeding days.

Hello Packers Stem,

I have never heard that before. Can you provide evidence that that was the case? Not trying to be snotty here but you make a lot of unsubstantiated statements in your post and it seems to come off as proven fact rather than conjecture. Again, no snottiness intended.

c.d.